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Old 10-17-2016, 10:51 AM   #101
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Actually, you may disagree with Hartley's system, but it was tailor-made for Calgary.
Not certain that Hartley's system was or wasn't tailor made for Calgary. What I am certain of is that it was tailor made for never winning a Stanley Cup.
I also know that after Mike Sullivan was brought in as Penguins coach mid December last year, and changed up the 'systems', the Pens lost 3 straight and managed only 5 wins in his first 14 games behind the bench. The Flames are not to be confused with the Penguins, and when a team that good has a significant adjustment period, I think we can expect it all to take a little time.
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Old 10-17-2016, 10:54 AM   #102
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That may be, but you can kiss playoffs goodbye if you get behind in the first 20
Didn't Anaheim win our division last year after getting behind in the first twenty? They were literally in the Auston Matthews sweepstakes at one point.
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Old 10-17-2016, 10:59 AM   #103
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That may be, but you can kiss playoffs goodbye if you get behind in the first 20
Get 12 points in the first 22 games and you need to go 7-3 in every 10 game segment left.
We probably won't know what kind of the team we have until then, but we better have a lot better team in these first 20 than we have seen so far.
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Old 10-17-2016, 11:04 AM   #104
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For the advanced stats fans:

Christian Roatis @CRoatis

#Flames are Top 5 in CF% among teams that have played >1game and bottom 5 in PDO.

In English: they're unlucky to be 0-2-1. Deep breaths.
PDO is of little to no value.

Made up by an Oilers fan thus by definition, no good.

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Old 10-17-2016, 12:09 PM   #105
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Defensively, the Flames don't look a hell of a lot different than previous years - they're always running around hemmed in their own zone; bad breakouts that lead to turnovers; they end up collapsing down low and blocking shots. I'm not sure why they have a hard time getting out of their own zone. Watching upper echelon teams break out of their own zone looks so effortless.

The offensive zone strategy is definitely different from Hartley. I really don't like the dump and chase they're currently doing. The only effective dump and chase player they have is Chiasson and he's a massive player as compared to the mid-sized to small players the Flames have. Secondly, the Flames have become a peripheral-shot team. They're just shooting from the boards and weird angles - low percentage shots. No one is going to the hard area in front of the goal and no one has a shot at the point. Everything is shot wide.

Neutral zone is just pathetic for the Flames. Cripes, they can't get anything going through neutral ice. This is where Hartley's system at least tries to back the opposition defence up to give the Flames more room for those stretch passes. Right now, the opposition just clogs up the center ice area and wait for the Flames to shoot the puck in.

We've actually gone back to the Sutter era of hockey, except the Flames haven't grown that much in size and every other Canadian team, with the exception of the Canucks, has picked up size and speed.
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Old 10-17-2016, 12:51 PM   #106
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Out of curiosity, how much video of his body of work in Dallas did you analyze?

Because Treliving analyzed a lot of it on video and was impressed by it.
That's an appeal to authority fallacy.

The Flames were impressed with Craig Button's work in Dallas too.
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Old 10-17-2016, 12:53 PM   #107
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That's an appeal to authority fallacy.
No, it's actually an appeal to "someone who analyzed the video".
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Old 10-17-2016, 12:53 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockey.modern View Post
For the advanced stats fans:

Christian Roatis @CRoatis

#Flames are Top 5 in CF% among teams that have played >1game and bottom 5 in PDO.

In English: they're unlucky to be 0-2-1. Deep breaths.
You don't give up 12 breakaways in 2 games because you're unlucky.
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Old 10-17-2016, 12:55 PM   #109
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No, it's actually an appeal to "someone who analyzed the video".
So Treliving could not possibly have been wrong then?
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Old 10-17-2016, 02:22 PM   #110
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I didn't see much of the pre-season, but after three games in the regular season, my thought is that it's either awful or only Backlund and Frolik implement it properly.

Defensively, it reminds me of every other system we've had since Sutter: too much floating back, standing around, allowing shots from the outside, and hoping the opposition makes a mistake that leads to a turnover. All too often, it results in a great chance from the slot/high slot.

Offensively, I can't tell what we're supposed to be doing. Spring Johnny? Twice during the Vancouver game (once on the PP, once in overtime) Gaudreau and another forward (can't remember who on each occasion, may have been Monahan) wound up skating directly toward each other just above the top of the circles. It looked like there was supposed to be an exchange, but it wound up confused and a turn-over resulted. Otherwise, GG seemed to be hoping that the top line could play like the Sedins: cycle in the corner a little, come around the back of the net, make a cross-crease pass for a tap-in. The Canucks, unsurprisingly, were wise to it every single time.
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Old 10-17-2016, 06:52 PM   #111
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IMO for the system implementation:

Knowledge -> Habit -> Second nature

I am assuming most of the players are still between the knowledge and habit phase. I may be a little more patient than most, but I will be waiting till the end of November to make an opinion as I'd hope most players are within the habit phase and moving towards the second nature phase.

Similar to some other posters, I don't fully get what Gulutzan's system is. I know of the components he has spoken about, but I don't have a great visual understanding of it yet. He has stated that sometimes players fall back into old habits. Overall, it does seem like there are glimpses of the new system and then glimpses of the old system too. The old system showing up is a little inevitable. It was the second nature of most of the team for a few years.

I am not worried.
I agree. Knowing a system is way different than employing it via split second decisions during moments in games, where a player would probably be way more likely to fall back on some previous habit than they would be in the video room or when staring at a whiteboard or whatever. That withstanding, some teams never take to the coach's system at all, and some systems just outright suck. However, my faith that Treliving did his due diligence here leads me to believe (for now at least) that this isn't what we're dealing with here.
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Old 10-17-2016, 08:25 PM   #112
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Three games into a season is still preseason hockey to an extent as lots of players are only just getting into game shape and sharp so it's not a given the team is going to play this way all season. Even though I'm no fan of the hire I believe it's pretty shortsighted to draw any conclusions from what we have seen to date. It's obvious Gulutzan doesn't have the benefit of the doubt with fans that a guy like Bruce Boudreau would get but all the same it's not fair to start judging the coach until later in the season.
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Old 10-17-2016, 08:38 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce View Post
Get 12 points in the first 22 games and you need to go 7-3 in every 10 game segment left.
We probably won't know what kind of the team we have until then, but we better have a lot better team in these first 20 than we have seen so far.
that really puts into perspective how important the start of the season is 7-3 is a tough thing to do
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Old 10-17-2016, 09:46 PM   #114
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Three games into a season is still preseason hockey to an extent as lots of players are only just getting into game shape and sharp so it's not a given the team is going to play this way all season. Even though I'm no fan of the hire I believe it's pretty shortsighted to draw any conclusions from what we have seen to date. It's obvious Gulutzan doesn't have the benefit of the doubt with fans that a guy like Bruce Boudreau would get but all the same it's not fair to start judging the coach until later in the season.
I still don't think it's fair to trash Gulutzan this early. Treliving should rightfully catch all the flack if the wheels fall off at this stage.

The issues that plague the Flames are mainly personnel related, not systems, imo.
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Old 10-20-2016, 08:06 PM   #115
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Im not sure if the team needs more time to understand and execute Gully's system or if the system itself is piss poor?
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Old 10-20-2016, 08:12 PM   #116
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Im not sure if the team needs more time to understand and execute Gully's system or if the system itself is piss poor?
The team needs more time to understand a piss poor system.
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Old 10-20-2016, 08:33 PM   #117
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Ottawa's quite similar to the Flames in terms of expectations and getting a new coach etc. They are 3-1 including wins against their biggest rivals. Luckily, we have their scraps from last year coaching our team now.
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Old 10-20-2016, 08:48 PM   #118
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What happened to outworking teams every night. The flames look lazy and passive out there
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Old 10-20-2016, 09:40 PM   #119
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The flames have now lost to Vancouver, Edmonton twice and Carolina. They also barely beat the Sabres. If you go 1-3-1 against the basement dweller team, you too are a basement dweller.

Perhaps BT should have gone after Boucher, Boudreau, or MacClean, Cameron or another tried and tested coach that was on the market. It seemed stupid at the time to hire a young, inexperienced coach for a young, inexperienced team. The results shouldn't be surprising to anyone
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Old 10-20-2016, 09:42 PM   #120
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Also will add that Bob Hartley got fired, in part for the bad PP. It looks even worse under GG.
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