NHL Expansion: The Toronto Legacy Aces

[FlamesAddiction]

I think the GTA needs another team actually. I lived in the Toronto area for several years and one thing I noticed is that a lot of people are actually losing interest in professional hockey and going towards other sports like soccer and basketball. The live NHL product has become so inaccessible to the normal middle class person that many adults have lost interest and aren’t raising their kids to follow the Leafs. Many new Canadians aren’t being marketed to either. The Leafs are becoming to be viewed by many as a luxury most can never hope to partake in. Yeah, games on TV are nice for people already fans, but the live spectacle and family experience of going to a game is a big deal to growing and maintaining a fan base for a sport.

More hockey fans also means more kids playing the game and more athletes being produced, which is good for the game overall.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

How?
Their ticket prices would have to be in the lower end of the NHL average to draw. Their local TV rights have no value as they would be beholding to the Laffs. Radio rights are worthless.

If they play out of Scotiabank arena then
-The suite license fees go to MLSE, so they only get ticket revenue on that.

-No arena naming revenue.
-Seat license fees go to MLSE.
-Concession sales go to MLSE.

This is a Maple Leafs town going on FIVE generations.

The population is here. The money is here. The hockey fan here is not interested in another team.

I think the only reason Bettman doesn't outright say that the NHL is done expanding is to keep franchise values up.

Tickets could be half of leaf's and still not be at the bottom of the league. This data is a few years old but the leafs were almost double league average. https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-team-in-2010/

Local TV and radio rights would absolutely have value - they're hockey in Canada. They would have way more value than many sunbelt teams.

I assumed MLSE would own the team, but even if not the MLSE seat licenses are team specific. Existing PSL holders wouldn't necessarily get the new tickets. Selling new PSLs in a paid for arena could be hugely profitable.

[Bleeding Red]

I haven't noticed that at all. Laff merchandise is still #1. A few Raptors hats around, but the rush has died off. Bars are still full on nights when the Laffs play. Good luck getting another team on just one of the 30 TVs. Laff tickets are still popular birthday/life cycle/charity auction items. Families save up to go to that one game a year. Laff season tickets are passed down generation to generation. Can the same be said about Flames tix? I have yet to find myself in the middle of a Raptors conversation, but everyone is talking Laffs.

For professional hockey affordability just look at the Marlies (TO AHL Team). 4 tix, 4 hot dogs, 4 drinks all less than $125 retail (you can go with a charity group for less). You can barely give those tix away. They didn't draw when Nylander was on the team. Why? Because they are not the Laffs!

New Canadians aren't marketed to because 1) they become Laff fans by osmosis (wanting to fit in), and 2) their preferred sports are being catered to. For example, something like 10 new cricket fields have opened in the last two years.

All a second team in the GTA would be is a convenient way to see out-of-town teams live. They would have to sell their upper bowl tickets for less than $20.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Tickets could be half of leaf's and still not be at the bottom of the league. This data is a few years old but the leafs were almost double league average. https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-team-in-2010/

That's info is a decade old?!? I'm saying they won't be able to get premium prices at all. A new GTA team would have to have an average ticket price in the bottom half of the league.

Local TV and radio rights would absolutely have value - they're hockey in Canada. They would have way more value than many sunbelt teams.

They have next to no value. The Laffs almost pulled out of radio when their last contract expired. Far fewer people will watch a new team than will watch the Laffs. Any rights they sell will be offset by the penalty they have to pay to the Laffs.

I assumed MLSE would own the team, but even if not the MLSE seat licenses are team specific. Existing PSL holders wouldn't necessarily get the new tickets. Selling new PSLs in a paid for arena could be hugely profitable.

I think those licenses are arena based, not team based. You pay the license for the seat and have first right of refusal to tix for your seat to any event in the arena. Same for the corporate boxes.

MLSE likely has zero interest in a second GTA team. Between the Laffs, Raptors, and concerts how many nights are dark? Looks like about 10 a month.

They have enough trouble with TOFC, the Argos, and the Marlies.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Wouldn't it be more like the Clippers? Especially if a "same arena" deal could be worked out.

And the Clippers are the 8th most valuable franchise in the NBA.

A second team in Toronto might not compete in popularity with the Leafs, but they would be viable and profitable.

[Itse]

My experience with sports teams is that the more popular a team is, the more there are people who hate it.

The Leafs are basically the perfect case of a team that's easy to hate : impossible to ignore even if you don't follow hockey, never actually succesful, and unapproachable prices so there's no chance of just embracing them. I bet there's a ton of hockey fans in Toronto who would immediately support Any Other Team just because they're so tired of the Leafs.

A 2nd NHL team in Toronto would also get the most free publicity that any sports team has likely ever had. For the first few years no one would shut up about them for a second.

A lot of people would probably instantly buy season tickets with the assumption that they might be impossible to get in the future.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Itse

My experience with sports teams is that the more popular a team is, the more there are people who hate it.

Without doubt. BUT.....there is a reason why the Flames raise the price for tix when the Laffs cone to town. Same as every other Canadian NHL team. "Go Laffs go" is a chant that is clearly heard in those opposing rinks.

The Leafs are basically the perfect case of a team that's easy to hate : impossible to ignore even if you don't follow hockey, never actually succesful, and unapproachable prices so there's no chance of just embracing them. I bet there's a ton of hockey fans in Toronto who would immediately support Any Other Team just because they're so tired of the Leafs.

Most of those Laff haters are either fans of other NHL teams or hate hockey in general and can;t stand the hold the Laffs have on the city. - Every city has all types. One won't automatically become a fan of the Toronto Tanks just because they hate the Laffs. Did the Devils or Islanders sell out in those early years because disgruntled Rangers fans wanted an outlet?

A 2nd NHL team in Toronto would also get the most free publicity that any sports team has likely ever had. For the first few years no one would shut up about them for a second.

Yes, right after every newscast and media outlet finished telling you about the Laffs that day.

A lot of people would probably instantly buy season tickets with the assumption that they might be impossible to get in the future.

I doubt that. Laff tix aren't impossible to get, just expensive. Hell, I've been to almost every Flames game in TO and only paid for a ticket once. The rest we freebies.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Agreed. Now London is another kettle of fish although Budweiser Gardens would need an upgrade.

An upgrade? The capacity is 9100. Unless they can "upgrade" the capacity by at least 5500, they'd need a new arena.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by jayswin

An upgrade? The capacity is 9100. Unless they can "upgrade" the capacity by at least 5500, they'd need a new arena.

Fair enough, build a new arena then. Would certainly be worth it.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

That's info is a decade old?!? I'm saying they won't be able to get premium prices at all. A new GTA team would have to have an average ticket price in the bottom half of the league.

MLSE likely has zero interest in a second GTA team. Between the Laffs, Raptors, and concerts how many nights are dark? Looks like about 10 a month.

They have enough trouble with TOFC, the Argos, and the Marlies.

MLSE is owned by an unholy alliance of Rogers & Bell. A second NHL team may be something that enables them to split.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by nobles_point

MLSE is owned by an unholy alliance of Rogers & Bell. A second NHL team may be something that enables them to split.

That unholy alliance is the only thing keeping Laffs & Raptors games on TSN. Without those Bell might as well fold TSN. Bell isn't going anywhere too soon.

Rogers isn't going anywhere either. They are too busy scrambling to recoup the $5.8 bil they sunk into National NHL rights.

A second team isn't helping with any of that enough to make one sell their Laff stake.

I also think that there are too many US options still on the table should the NHL ever try expansion again (plus those options are good leverage for current crap teams). KC, another Ohio team, Houston.

At least the GTA didn't waste taxpayers' money on an arena like QC.

[Resolute 14]

Pro tip: Constantly calling the team the "Laffs" is childish and makes you look like a fool. It completely undermines any credibility you might have in this debate.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Pro tip: Constantly calling the team the "Laffs" is childish and makes you look like a fool. It completely undermines any credibility you might have in this debate.

Properly, it's "Leaves".

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Rogers isn't going anywhere either. They are too busy scrambling to recoup the $5.8 bil they sunk into National NHL rights.

A second team isn't helping with any of that enough to make one sell their Laff stake.

a. how do you know Rogers is having difficulty profiting from NHL rights?
b. a second team arguably helps increase viewership.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

That unholy alliance is the only thing keeping Laffs & Raptors games on TSN. Without those Bell might as well fold TSN. Bell isn't going anywhere too soon.

Rogers isn't going anywhere either. They are too busy scrambling to recoup the $5.8 bil they sunk into National NHL rights.

A second team isn't helping with any of that enough to make one sell their Laff stake.

I also think that there are too many US options still on the table should the NHL ever try expansion again (plus those options are good leverage for current crap teams). KC, another Ohio team, Houston.

At least the GTA didn't waste taxpayers' money on an arena like QC.

Wow. You keep pontificating without any facts or evidence. You hate the Leafs. We get it.

They’re still the most profitable hockey franchise on the planet. You make it sound like they’re screwed.

A second NHL team in Toronto has more hockey fans than any of the markets you “think” are better options.

There isn’t a second team there because it’s a captured market for the NHL and the Leafs have a monopoly, otherwise Balsilies Coyotes would be playing in Hamilton.

Toronto is a hockey town, but more than that, they’re a “we only watch the best” town.

They’re fickle & largely manipulated by marketing. TFC games are hip while CFL games aren’t when the MLS is a comparatively inferior brand of sport as the CFL is one step from the NFL. What is MLS? Two or three steps from premier leagues in Europe.

The NHL would be immensely profitable there with a second franchise no matter how much you hate the Leafs.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

a. how do you know Rogers is having difficulty profiting from NHL rights?
b. a second team arguably helps increase viewership.

On the first part, articles suggesting Rogers has done well with the TV deal have been few and far between. Most often, the contract has been criticized.

For the second, I guess it depends on whether the new team adds viewers or just shifts them. It will also depend on what channel their regional games end up on. It's long been presumed that if the market was split, one team would end up on Rogers (SNO) and the other on Bell (TSN4). If Rogers were to get 'stuck' with the new team, they would lose viewers regionally.

Nationally, the question becomes one of how many additional viewers would Toronto2 add vs. simply shifting from other broadcasts. Most of the time, it would make much more sense to keep Montreal and the Leafs in the 7ET slot on HNIC, for instance. That means Toronto2 either gets dumped to an alternate channel - and buried under those two teams - or moved to a 4ET timeslot - which would necessitate trade offs against the afternoon regional and national broadcasts already scheduled.

[Bleeding Red]

Sorry. I will now refer the the Toronto NHL team by their revered acronym - TML. I'll try not to take their name in vain in future. (I don't recall a lot of backlash when referring to the Oilers as the Greasers.)

Originally Posted by GioforPM

a. how do you know Rogers is having difficulty profiting from NHL rights?
b. a second team arguably helps increase viewership.

A) - Globe and Mail - April 2017

"Rogers Media is finally starting to see a payoff from its billion-dollar bet on NHL hockey thanks to the return of five Canadian teams to the playoffs.

In 2016, all seven Canadian teams missed the playoffs, and the television ratings took a 61-per-cent nosedive from 2015, averaging 513,000 viewers for the first 20 games of the first round of the playoffs.

TV audiences declined by 16 per cent in each of the first two seasons of the 12-year, $5.2-billion national broadcast deal that Rogers made with the NHL."

The whole thing seems pretty dependent on all Canadian teams making the playoffs. That and the recent changes - Tim & Sid moving to radio. Staff changes. Doesn't seem like Rogers execs are rolling around on cash covered beds to me.

B) I believe viewership would only be slightly higher than, say, a MTL vs PIT game. What is NYR vs NYI viewership like? You won't get that many new viewers, you'd just be giving current viewers an extra team to watch.

I think the bottom line is if a second GTA team were to be as immensely profitable, extremely valuable, and a huge media draw as everyone says, then the NHL would have cashed that $600 million dollar cheque by now.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Sorry. I will now refer the the Toronto NHL team by their revered acronym - TML. I'll try not to take their name in vain in future. (I don't recall a lot of backlash when referring to the Oilers as the Greasers.)



A) - Globe and Mail - April 2017

"Rogers Media is finally starting to see a payoff from its billion-dollar bet on NHL hockey thanks to the return of five Canadian teams to the playoffs.

In 2016, all seven Canadian teams missed the playoffs, and the television ratings took a 61-per-cent nosedive from 2015, averaging 513,000 viewers for the first 20 games of the first round of the playoffs.

TV audiences declined by 16 per cent in each of the first two seasons of the 12-year, $5.2-billion national broadcast deal that Rogers made with the NHL."

The whole thing seems pretty dependent on all Canadian teams making the playoffs. That and the recent changes - Tim & Sid moving to radio. Staff changes. Doesn't seem like Rogers execs are rolling around on cash covered beds to me.

B) I believe viewership would only be slightly higher than, say, a MTL vs PIT game. What is NYR vs NYI viewership like? You won't get that many new viewers, you'd just be giving current viewers an extra team to watch.

I think the bottom line is if a second GTA team were to be as immensely profitable, extremely valuable, and a huge media draw as everyone says, then the NHL would have cashed that $600 million dollar cheque by now.

So the short answer is you don't know on both questions.

On the last point, the NHL would have to convince the Leafs to waive their territorial rights, which extend south all the way to the US border. They can't just "cash the cheque".

[Bleeding Red]

nobles_point - Wow. You keep pontificating without any facts or evidence. You hate the Leafs. We get it.

There really are not a lot of "Facts or Evidence" in this overall hypothetical scenario.

They’re still the most profitable hockey franchise on the planet. You make it sound like they’re screwed.

The TML are fine. It's the hypothetical second GTA team that will likely be "screwed".

A second NHL team in Toronto has more hockey fans than any of the markets you “think” are better options.

Where are your facts on that? Just because the population is bigger doesn't mean there are more fans in one place vs. the other. Houston, with a storied hockey history, is comparable in population to TO.

There isn’t a second team there because it’s a captured market for the NHL and the Leafs have a monopoly, otherwise Balsilies Coyotes would be playing in Hamilton.

TML was not the reason there is no team in Balsilies team in Hamilton. That was all about cash on hand, bad arena, Bettman's US TV "footprint", and EGO!

Toronto is a hockey town, but more than that, they’re a “we only watch the best” town.

They’re fickle & largely manipulated by marketing. TFC games are hip while CFL games aren’t when the MLS is a comparatively inferior brand of sport as the CFL is one step from the NFL. What is MLS? Two or three steps from premier leagues in Europe.

I did type before that Toronto was a bandwagon town. TML is the king. Raptors and Blue Jays are princes. All others are bush league.

The NHL would be immensely profitable there with a second franchise no matter how much you hate the Leafs.

The NHL would be immensely profitable in many centers. If there was empirical evidence that a second Toronto franchise would instantly become the second most profitable and second most valuable team in the league why has the NHL not cashed that cheque? IF you had $1 billion to do it, wouldn't you be first in line trying to make it happen?

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

So the short answer is you don't know on both questions.

On the last point, the NHL would have to convince the Leafs to waive their territorial rights, which extend south all the way to the US border. They can't just "cash the cheque".

Pay them enough, they'll waive all the way to the bank.