Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 08-12-2020, 08:49 PM   #741
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Your proposal requires 11500 new teachers / untrained but educated babysitters to take Gr 1-6 from 25 - 15 kids per class. (It’s 1.6 times the number of teachers not 1.4 I said earlier). You also doubled the teen pregnancy rate by having all high school kids staying at home unsupervised.

Putting untrained but educated people to supervise kids seems like a pretty poor option. If I am risking sending them to school I expect qualified trained teachers to be educating them.

The situation sucks. I’m not seeing any solution which results in 15 person class sizes AND full time school. So it isn’t bad governance to propose full time school. It’s valuing full time school over risk of Covid.

Last edited by GGG; 08-12-2020 at 08:53 PM.
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2020, 09:34 PM   #742
DeluxeMoustache
 
DeluxeMoustache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG View Post
Your proposal requires 11500 new teachers / untrained but educated babysitters to take Gr 1-6 from 25 - 15 kids per class. (It’s 1.6 times the number of teachers not 1.4 I said earlier). You also doubled the teen pregnancy rate by having all high school kids staying at home unsupervised.

Putting untrained but educated people to supervise kids seems like a pretty poor option. If I am risking sending them to school I expect qualified trained teachers to be educating them.

The situation sucks. I’m not seeing any solution which results in 15 person class sizes AND full time school. So it isn’t bad governance to propose full time school. It’s valuing full time school over risk of Covid.

You could channel your energy in to exploring solutions or objecting

If teachers and educational assistants are coordinated, it is very possible to have a tag team. Teachers are not actively instructing 100% of the time. Is it really that difficult for you to accept the idea of the teacher handing over supervisory duties to an assistant watching over a kid who is doing their addition?

Like I say, you can accomplish this with a strategy to use available resources.

Take, say, all grade 7 teachers and assign them to elementary for a year. And spread the 8-12 teachers to cover 7-12. Or even more.

And we don’t need to just pluck random people off the street. But yes, I do think with such a large number of unemployed, educated people out there, yes, you can push school by a month and implement some qualification program

How about a paid internship program for people going through post secondary programs in education?

Geez, they don’t even have to keep temporary people on staff after the school year.

Where there is a will, there is a way

But there is no will. Because... they have masks. And hand soap*.
*Not more hand soap. The same amount as last year

And a typical government contract handed to a donor to help that along
DeluxeMoustache is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2020, 10:18 PM   #743
photon
The new goggles also do nothing.
 
photon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Rockyview says they'll come out with their online option info on August 14.

With two out of three family members at high risk, my son in high school, and my (healthy but closing in on 70) parents moving in (separate walkout basement suite but still), I'm really finding it a difficult choice and difficult to evaluate the risk.

I am lucky in that I can likely work from home indefinitely. And the fact that my son is on the spectrum shifts things too (makes it easier to choose online in some ways, harder in others).

It's a really difficult decision when trying to weigh a bunch of unknown potential harms against each other
__________________
Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
photon is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to photon For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2020, 10:18 PM   #744
Jiri Hrdina
Moderator
 
Jiri Hrdina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Exp:
Default

I’m not an expert but I think part time schooling should have been considered more as a way to manage class sizes
Jiri Hrdina is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Jiri Hrdina For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2020, 10:32 PM   #745
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Your proposals sacrifice quality of education in exchange for perceived safety. I donít mind the idea of adding 4th year education students if their was interest. That gets you about 2000 teachers. I think raising salaries to expand teaching hours might have some merit. None get you to 15 kids / class

You seem to be not understanding what the difference between lecturing and teaching is. Iím sure one of the many teachers can come in to describe how important the 1:1 time is in between lecture portions is to teaching.

What are your thoughts on BCís current plan of

No masks
And cohort sizes of 60 in elementary and middle school and 120 in high school

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/e...earning-groups

This doesnít appear to be a UCP issue rather one that is being dealt similarly by two governments that couldnít be further apart.

To me the goal of all the work schools are doing is so that when one kid eventually tests positive for Covid you can quickly isolate and test the cohort before it transmit into the generally population. Limited Student to student transfer At school is acceptable provided it does not raise the province wide R0 above one. It seems based on your posts that you feel that any student to student spread in school is not acceptable.

With that goal in mind what B.C. and Albertaís plans appear to meet that requirement so long as community spread outside the school is low.
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2020, 10:34 PM   #746
Jiri Hrdina
Moderator
 
Jiri Hrdina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Exp:
Default

I should clarify
I think part time should be considered for lower grades
And more remote learning should be used for higher grades
Jiri Hrdina is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Jiri Hrdina For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2020, 10:34 PM   #747
tvp2003
Franchise Player
 
tvp2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina View Post
I’m not an expert but I think part time schooling should have been considered more as a way to manage class sizes
I’m guessing that is the backup plan if Scenario 1 proves unworkable:

Quote:
Scenario 2 – In-school classes partially resume with additional health measures
Besides masks and increased cleaning, part-time school with smaller in-school classes seems like the obvious alternative.
tvp2003 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to tvp2003 For This Useful Post:
GGG
Old 08-12-2020, 10:37 PM   #748
DeluxeMoustache
 
DeluxeMoustache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina View Post
Iím not an expert but I think part time schooling should have been considered more as a way to manage class sizes
Absolutely

5 days on / 9 off could possibly work well for a lot of people

If parents of elementary kids, who need to work, can find families with whom they can cooperate, to manage their kids, it could very well work.

Plus that 5 on / 9 off could provide an extra layer of protection to help contain any outbreaks, given our understanding of incubation times. (4/10 even better)

What they could have done is used their months to think through and draw up 3-4 actual detailed, serious scenarios, and surveyed parents to see on a scale of 1-5, how well they could make each of them work

Just a lazy job by a crappy government
DeluxeMoustache is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to DeluxeMoustache For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2020, 10:46 PM   #749
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina View Post
I should clarify
I think part time should be considered for lower grades
And more remote learning should be used for higher grades
Sorry I was replying to DM when I said ďyour proposalĒ

I donít think itís unreasonable to support a part time option. It just bugs me when people think there is some solution that the UCP is just too cheap or too dumb to provide. There are trade offs with each option.

None are wrong, they each value risk and education differently.

I think extended remote learning for higher grades would be more damaging then for younger ones. Probably more required from a risk stand point but leaving teenage kids without supervision for days on end expecting them to complete school work independently seems like a recipe for lower graduation rates. I was only half joking about doubling teen pregnancy rates. I certainly would have struggled with online only and I didnít need the instruction portion of school just the discipline portion of it.
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to GGG For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2020, 11:01 PM   #750
DeluxeMoustache
 
DeluxeMoustache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Exp:
Default

GGG, I do not argue that they need to weigh any trade off between education quality and health risk.

I don’t agree with the dramatic nature and representation of your phrasing about “sacrificing educational quality in exchange for perceived safety”.

That is what I am looking for from the government, something that makes sense and maybe even takes a little effort to truly reduce risk.

I really think that it should be possible, for K-6, to have a blend of fully qualified teacher time and collaborating educational assistant time. With collaboration and planning, I am quite confident it is possible. Perhaps more streamlining by subject would help, as well.

Geez. I am pretty sure that if my supervising prof, back in the day, could lecture the class, and use me for labs, substitute occasionally for lectures, and have office hours, for multiple cohorts, they can figure out a way to build a tag team and make sure kids K-6 don’t come home having learned nothing. Really, come on, man.

That’s how the entire world works. People collaborate and delegate all the time to get results

As for BC, aside from your note of 60/120, actual class sizes are capped at the usual 22 for K-3 and 30 for 4+. I am unimpressed, since you asked.

Also, they have increased funding, if only by a modest 45 million, I understand, as compared to the cuts here.

Ontario has also increased funding by 310 M if I am not mistaken .
DeluxeMoustache is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2020, 11:03 PM   #751
DeluxeMoustache
 
DeluxeMoustache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG View Post
Sorry I was replying to DM when I said “your proposal”

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to support a part time option. It just bugs me when people think there is some solution that the UCP is just too cheap or too dumb to provide. There are trade offs with each option.

None are wrong, they each value risk and education differently.

I think extended remote learning for higher grades would be more damaging then for younger ones. Probably more required from a risk stand point but leaving teenage kids without supervision for days on end expecting them to complete school work independently seems like a recipe for lower graduation rates. I was only half joking about doubling teen pregnancy rates. I certainly would have struggled with online only and I didn’t need the instruction portion of school just the discipline portion of it.

Well there is a pandemic. Things aren’t normal and that’s where parenting is required.

And it’s not them being too dumb, the problem I suspect is that they are a-holes
DeluxeMoustache is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2020, 11:23 PM   #752
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache View Post
Well there is a pandemic. Things arenít normal and thatís where parenting is required.

And itís not them being too dumb, the problem I suspect is that they are a-holes
I really dislike the well parents should parent better position. It is a statement from privilege. The people who pay for negative outcomes as a result of poor parenting is society in general. So in a world where we know there is a bell curve of parenting and kid quality we should be careful with solutions that push more responsibility onto both.

I think you make a mistake when you think the government are a-holes. They are idealogical in their decision making. If anything online school fits far more into the privatization narrative. Show the public system failing at educating to drive funding to vouchers. If that is the goal a year of failing at online and a and standardized test results would provide ammo. Instead they are risking mass infection of children which might be the only thing that people of all political stripes would punish them for.

Apparently the CCSD will release all of their back to school protocols this week so we should have a good idea of what it actually looks like. I hope to see staggered starts and recesses and strict cohorting along with mandatory masks. But it will allow for a full evaluation of the measures put in place.
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to GGG For This Useful Post:
Old 08-12-2020, 11:53 PM   #753
DeluxeMoustache
 
DeluxeMoustache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Exp:
Default

Well, a couple of things.

You have mentioned a couple of times about the UCP, but make no mistake, it’s about what is being done, not about the party in charge.

No way you can say that a government pressing ahead with budget cuts now, and this lame plan, is acting in the general best interests of the public

(I will say the a-hole comment was more of a fun poke at Kenney. It is his word, after all. Not for this thread, but I find him to be reprehensible, for many reasons. Full disclosure: I did not like Bryan Marchment when he was a Flame)

And hey, it is reality that there is a pandemic, and kids have to rely on adults to put it in context.

That comment about expecting parents to parent? You don’t like it, I get that. But the pandemic should be a rallying point.

What a great opportunity for the government to step up and do something. You know, beyond 2 masks per kid.

Parents are involved in deciding what their kids are doing, and this is something everyone has in common. Dealing with a pandemic as society. It is a great opportunity for the government to lead. Understand and consider collective concerns and strategize something that works best for everyone, and equip the parents with good talking points

But no leadership here. “If you can’t keep your kids home and teach them yourself, send them to school, tell them to wear a mask, and to wash their hands”

To the naked eye, it’s doing as little as possible. I don’t like that my tax dollars support this
DeluxeMoustache is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2020, 07:53 AM   #754
WinnipegFan
Crash and Bang Winger
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina View Post
I should clarify
I think part time should be considered for lower grades
And more remote learning should be used for higher grades
This is the plan that we would all rally behind in education. I don't understand the logic of going all in when you could start with this and if it goes well then move to a full return. The potential fallout out of going all in right away is massive.

As for kids education vs. Health, one is relative and one has absolute results. We tend to take our health for granted until it is gone, we do the same with education. We can always get more education, if you've ever had a major health crisis you know there is nothing you can do, and it consumes your life. I don't understand risking permanent long term health issues for temporary education that is going to be stressful, disjointed, and highly problematic at best.

I fear Covid as I have two family members at risk, but I fear the fallout even more. What do we do when a student brings this to their school and it spreads. This kids already own massive amounts of external events that they internalize and it really isn't their fault. I work with them to understand this. However, in this case I am at a loss on how to approach this because there will be an absolute fact that it will be linked to their presence (they will go over every little detail, did I wear a mask, did I speak to loudly, did I sneeze, etc.). They will not pick up on the abstract notion that they were just part of a balanced risk decision that was, supposedly, best for the masses. Especially if, god forbid, they are linked to a break out that they started which results in a death of anyone. That is the extreme, but even being patient zero, and if you think kids own't find out you're kidding yourself, and facing the social taboo of that. Kids are tough on each other if you fart in class, let alone bring a pandemic.
WinnipegFan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to WinnipegFan For This Useful Post:
Old 08-13-2020, 08:27 AM   #755
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG View Post
I really dislike the well parents should parent better position. It is a statement from privilege. The people who pay for negative outcomes as a result of poor parenting is society in general. So in a world where we know there is a bell curve of parenting and kid quality we should be careful with solutions that push more responsibility onto both.
Public education is the main instrument of flattening inequality in Canada. It achieves this by reducing the importance of parents in educational outcomes. Any Covid response that increases the influence of parents on education will widen inequality.

If a government wanted to widen inequality and hurt the prospects of disadvantaged children, it's hard to think of a better way to achieve that than closing schools and relying on remove learning (and parental involvement) to educate children.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
CliffFletcher is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to CliffFletcher For This Useful Post:
Old 08-13-2020, 08:32 AM   #756
WinnipegFan
Crash and Bang Winger
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
Public education is the main instrument of flattening inequality in Canada. It achieves this by reducing the importance of parents in educational outcomes. Any Covid response that increases the influence of parents on education will widen inequality.

If a government wanted to widen inequality and hurt the prospects of disadvantaged children, it's hard to think of a better way to achieve that than closing schools and relying on remove learning (and parental involvement) to educate children.
We don't have public education anymore in Alberta, for now in name.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...ards-1.5275561

This government wants to promote privatization of education, which will vastly increase the inequality gap. Great way to achieve this, set public schools up for failure with a terrible plan. The results are being seen here:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...mith-1.5679251
WinnipegFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2020, 09:58 AM   #757
lambeburger
Powerplay Quarterback
 
lambeburger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Calgary, AB
Exp:
Default

Read an interesting article that challenges the idea of part time schooling being safer:

https://www.wired.com/story/hybrid-s...option-of-all/
lambeburger is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to lambeburger For This Useful Post:
Old 08-13-2020, 10:27 AM   #758
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WinnipegFan View Post
We don't have public education anymore in Alberta, for now in name.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...ards-1.5275561

This government wants to promote privatization of education, which will vastly increase the inequality gap. Great way to achieve this, set public schools up for failure with a terrible plan. The results are being seen here:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...mith-1.5679251
So what was the plan again to match the Private sectors ability to match 15 person class rooms and full time school hours?
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2020, 10:31 AM   #759
peter12
Franchise Player
 
peter12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

The COVID-19 education debate is really just about class as demonstrated by almost all the posts in this thread.

Send the kids back to school and see what happens, I say. It is one of those things that has to happen.
peter12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2020, 10:31 AM   #760
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lambeburger View Post
Read an interesting article that challenges the idea of part time schooling being safer:

https://www.wired.com/story/hybrid-s...option-of-all/
Good article. It also challenges the 6 ft rule for schools and presents data on the experiences of countries that opened schools with 1 meter (3 ft) policies.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.

Last edited by CliffFletcher; 08-13-2020 at 10:34 AM.
CliffFletcher is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CliffFletcher For This Useful Post:
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:58 PM.

Calgary Flames
2019-20




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2016