[Trade] Habs acquire rights to UFA Joel Edmundson for 5th. UPD: Signed 4 yrs x $3.5 mil

[Point Blank]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

We don't need to bring anything to the argument, because we didn't make a claim that requires backing up, like Scorpion did ('one of the worst in the league'). You make a statement like that, you are going to be challenged on it.

Because that's how discussions work.

If you disagree you should probably explain why besides “no you’re wrong.” He brought info to the table to back up his thinking, you brought nothing.

That’s how discussions work.

[TheScorpion]

I have no issue with Enoch Root challenging my opinions, that's a good thing and it serves for the betterment of the discussion. I have explained my reasoning and I have provided information to the thread that would likely not normally have been posted here if not for me being challenged. I challenge posters on their opinions all the time and I fully expected to be questioned for my opinion on Edmundson's play.

I do, however, object to being called "a worse version of... a complete buffoon" and, less vehemently, my opinions being dismissed as "entirely based on stats." I don't appreciate that. Maybe me saying that comes off as me whining but I think it's a fair gripe.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Well, no one made that argument, so I guess you're good.

In fact, no one has made any argument at all to defend Edmundson. All I see are scorps compelling arguments saying Edmundson is no good, backed up with stats and some replies bashing him for it (but not offering any evidence to the contrary).

Scorp wins this one by the two sweetest words in the English language. De-fault.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Gee never though Joel Edmundson would be a player that generates heated arguments

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I didn’t know who he was until I clicked on this thread but I’m sure glad we didn’t trade for his rights lol.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I didn’t know who he was until I clicked on this thread but I’m sure glad we didn’t trade for his rights lol.

But, the MUSIC HAS STARTED!

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by Point Blank

At least Scorp is giving ONE picture, unlike you and Enoch who’s been completely dismissive but bringing nothing of substance to back your argument at all.

Showing just advanced stats and a couple quotes from nobodies on twitter that backs up his stupid claim isn't exactly what I would call "substance". The guy bases his opinions on advanced stats and advanced stats only.

Edmundson was a top 4 defenseman on a Stanley Cup winning team. He is a stay at home defenseman who gets mostly defensive zone starts, so of course his advanced stats aren't going to look good, because they are skewed to the benefit of offensive players. He's a good penalty killer, he both hits and gets in shooting lanes.

To claim he is a "very poor defenseman" is an absolutely terrible statement, just like it would be for someone to claim he is elite.

[kyuss275]

A 5th for the rights to a bad defencemen? What’s Arizona going to get for Hall? I was hoping a 3rd would do it , but now not so sure

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

In fact, no one has made any argument at all to defend Edmundson. All I see are scorps compelling arguments saying Edmundson is no good, backed up with stats and some replies bashing him for it (but not offering any evidence to the contrary).

Scorp wins this one by the two sweetest words in the English language. De-fault.

Pops always told me, "You can't argue with stupid" and an opinion based solely on advanced stats is the definition of stupid.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

Pops always told me, "You can't argue with stupid" and an opinion based solely on advanced stats is the definition of stupid.

One can disagree without being a dick to other posters
Give it a go

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

One can disagree without being a dick to other posters
Give it a go

I'm going to stand by my statement, thanks. I shouldn't have to censor my opinions about someone's opinions as long as I stay within the sites rules, which I have.

[Rick M.]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

But, the MUSIC HAS STARTED!

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Unfortunately, it’s the theme to The Adams Family.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Point Blank

If you disagree you should probably explain why besides “no you’re wrong.” He brought info to the table to back up his thinking, you brought nothing.

That’s how discussions work.

The problem I have with hockey stats is that they have little validity, because there are too many external variables, too much inherent noise, and too many of the people using them do not understand the extent, and impact, of randomness on the data (among other problems). But people accept them as valid, simply because they are 'out there'. "Gotta be better than nothing, right?" Well no, not necessarily.

This issue actually requires and warrants a much lengthier and more detailed response, but I don't have the time nor the inclination to bother right now (which was why I wasn't responding in the first place).

Maybe one day I will start a thread to discuss these issues.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Gee never though Joel Edmundson would be a player that generates heated arguments

Probably because his name sounds like Edmonton.

[TheScorpion]

Being a top-4 defenseman doesn't really mean a lot other than you played a lot of minutes. Rasmus Ristolainen and Marc-Edouard Vlasic have also played a lot of minutes in the last couple years. They haven't been good minutes, though.

Edmundson was also the Blues PKer who got victimized for the most shot attempts and expected goals against on the PK in the Cup year, but that's not a very good sample size and the difference between the expected goals that he allowed and the Blues' best PKing dmen, Pietrangelo and Parayko, allowed wasn't huge. That said his defensive zone starts aren't even that big a deal, he was close to 50% even in his worst year in Carolina this year.

In short, Edmundson is No Good.

[Enoch Root]

On the Jays telecast, Buck just offered up a quote from Billy Martin "don't let statistics form your gut, make sure a statistic confirms your gut".

Which illustrates another issue that I have with fans over use of stats - they often form their opinions from them. And that is often fraught with danger.

[AC]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

Edmundson was a top 4 defenseman on a Stanley Cup winning team.

To be fair, Edmundson was used as a #5 by the Blues in the playoffs, eventually down to a #6/7 in the Finals.

Against Boston, average icetimes for the defence:
Parayko: 26.95 minutes
Pietrangelo: 26.29 minutes
Bouwmeester: 24.76 minutes
Gunnarsson: 15.30 minutes
Dunn: 13.16 minutes
Edmundson: 12.55 minutes
Bortuzzo: 10.32 minutes

Against Boston when Dunn was able to play, Edmundson played 7 and 9 minutes of icetime, and was also scratched for games 5 and 6.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

I'm going to stand by my statement, thanks. I shouldn't have to censor my opinions about someone's opinions as long as I stay within the sites rules, which I have.

It’s not about having your opinions
It’s about how you express them and treat others here

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

On the Jays telecast, Buck just offered up a quote from Billy Martin "don't let statistics form your gut, make sure a statistic confirms your gut".

Which illustrates another issue that I have with fans over use of stats - they often form their opinions from them. And that is often fraught with danger.

This I agree with, although I think it's also fair to not blindly dismiss a stat if it goes against your gut.

[bax]

After reading through this thread I would just like to make the point that Scorp is one of the very best contributors on this forum.

He writes articles, provides well thought out posts, backs up what he is saying with stats, and even started a podcast and got exclusive interviews with people close to the Flames where we got some unique insights and information.

His contributions are part of what makes this forum great. You are free to disagree with his thoughts (I've had my fair share of disagreements with him), but how about being a little less arrogant and showing some respect? At the very least bring something meaningful to the table like he does.

As far as this specific discussion goes I've yet to see a compelling argument as to why the Flames should have been trading a 5th round pick for the rights of Edmundson.