Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[Incogneto]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Are you a STH?

My tickets cost $10k for the pair (and some people pay double that), rising at about 5% per year. Which is my choice to pay, obviously.

The experience, for that $10k, includes way over-crowded concourses, ridiculous bathroom lines, freezing cold water in the bathrooms, terrible concessions, small seats with too little leg room, and little to nothing in the way of restaurants and other establishments around the rink for before and after.

I would not say those are minor issues. If you are a STH and feel that way, that's fine. But I get tired of people who aren't - who watch games for free and feel they deserve a team - telling me those aren't big deals.

If you want people to buy tickets and support having a team here, you have to offer them reasonable value for their money. And when I compare the experience at the Saddledome to that of any other rink I have been to, well there is no comparison. It's embarrassing.

The part that you are not thinking about is that your $10K seats are going to be $15K+ (50%+ increase) in the new arena, and all the complaints are only going to get 20% better. 20% quicker bathroom line. 20% better concessions. And I am pretty sure the leg room will NOT increase, and the prices of beer/concessions will go up by 25-50%.

I am a STH, and have been for 15 years. I am pretty sure when the new rink is built, that will be the end of me being a STH. That is when the Game Value gets so far out of whack - and my 4K TV makes viewing at home so much better - that I will save my money.

Everyone is excited for the new shiny object in or city, but they neglect to think about the associated costs with it. Why are we in such a rush for a new arena. It is inevitable, but I am cool to drag this out a couple more years.....

[MacDaddy77]

[QUOTE=powderjunkie;6912854]The perspective on this is from roughly the Dutton's entrance to the Dome today? Obviously it's not the intention of the rendering, but it will be interesting to see what the connection of 17 Ave and Olympic Way aka. Stampede Trail looks like at this location.


Really? It looks more like from MacLeod trail and 18 ave SE to me

Nevermind I see it now. Looks just a little bit better than currently

[IMG][/IMG]

[hah]

Isn't the Stampede Corral a historic site? If not, it should be, where are all the SJW when you need them? I love the Corral! SAVE the Corral!

[Ozy_Flame]

Geezuz I thought that was the Mewata Armoury for a second.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

The perspective on this is from roughly the Dutton's entrance to the Dome today? Obviously it's not the intention of the rendering, but it will be interesting to see what the connection of 17 Ave and Olympic Way aka. Stampede Trail looks like at this location.

Yes, I believe that's where it is. The road running past the foreground is 4th St and the road on the left side of the image is the new 17th Ave extension. You can see the Arriva tower on the right side of the image.


You can see a concept for the street layout on page 13 in this document: https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...+Optimized.pdf


Rachel Notley is going to be at the Stampede grounds shortly after noon today to make an announcement: https://www.facebook.com/rachelnotle...7667974379527/

The expectation is that she'll be announcing the province's contribution to the BMO expansion.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Incogneto

The part that you are not thinking about is that your $10K seats are going to be $15K+ (50%+ increase) in the new arena, and all the complaints are only going to get 20% better. 20% quicker bathroom line. 20% better concessions. And I am pretty sure the leg room will NOT increase, and the prices of beer/concessions will go up by 25-50%.

I am a STH, and have been for 15 years. I am pretty sure when the new rink is built, that will be the end of me being a STH. That is when the Game Value gets so far out of whack - and my 4K TV makes viewing at home so much better - that I will save my money.

Everyone is excited for the new shiny object in or city, but they neglect to think about the associated costs with it. Why are we in such a rush for a new arena. It is inevitable, but I am cool to drag this out a couple more years.....

I am most definitely thinking about that, and fully expect it. The question then will be: is there value? If there is, then I will continue to be STH, if there isn't, then I won't.

But I know one thing for sure - the value is not there right now. And with each passing year, it becomes more difficult to renew.

But some of your other comments I don't agree with. I have been to about 2/3s of the rinks in the NHL, and I can say that the leg room (as one example) is better in every single one of them. As are the concession experiences. As are the washroom facilities...

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Muta

Because it's his opinion, its as valid as mine (despite my opinion of it), and I don't hate him for it?

No. It's not. He can say he doesn't like the look of the building. Claiming it won't last in our climate with no basis for saying so should not be respected.

vaccines cause autism. valid opinion, sorry person who studies vaccine safety, our opinions are equally valid.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

No. It's not. He can say he doesn't like the look of the building. Claiming it won't last in our climate with no basis for saying so should not be respected.

vaccines cause autism. valid opinion, sorry person who studies vaccine safety, our opinions are equally valid.

It's valid in the sense that he has every right to believe it if he wants, particularly the part if he thinks the architecture is ugly - that is absolutely his opinion and valid in that respect, as architectural preference is subjective. I don't agree with it, as I think it is uninformed; I also don't agree with his building envelope comment, as that is just flat out wrong.

However, that doesn't mean you can't be a decent human being and be respectful of his opinion in the process.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by marsplasticeraser

We can improve a lot of the issues for fans without new arena.

The fact is you can solve most if not all of the fan issues with an expansion and using some tech to eliminate bottlenecks.

Step 1: Build two large, multi-level expansions on North/South of Saddledome and use these as the location for all food/beverage and increased washrooms with larger entry/exit points. (You can use the Lowest level for additional player facilities if required).

Step 2: Improve the main entrance (moving food service allows you to open up the area surrounding main entrance). Develop a large landscaped gathering place where grass is. Consider eliminating elevated walkway.

Step 3: Make existing concourse only for movement to/from entrance/food hall to seats. This gets rid of the lines that clog up the concourse.

Step 4: Use one of the existing (or create your own) mobile ordering apps. Fans place their order for the intermission during the period, so all fans are doing is pick-up. Payment is on app, so time to get served drops 75%+ and food services are more productive. There is no reason why this isn't done now, other than I get the impression the Flames brass are not that comfortable with technology.

Step 5: Save $400mm to $500mm of public money.

The only downside is the owners don't get more luxury boxes and they can't increase ticket prices as high. Also, maybe we don't get big-time concerts and acoustics aren't great.

None of this solves the #1 problem. The roof isn't safe to bear the weight of the modern event equipment.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I am most definitely thinking about that, and fully expect it. The question then will be: is there value? If there is, then I will continue to be STH, if there isn't, then I won't.

But I know one thing for sure - the value is not there right now. And with each passing year, it becomes more difficult to renew.

But some of your other comments I don't agree with. I have been to about 2/3s of the rinks in the NHL, and I can say that the leg room (as one example) is better in every single one of them. As are the concession experiences. As are the washroom facilities...

So if your season tickets go up to support a new arena, you’ll make a guess on whether there’s value and if not, you’ll cancel (because rest assured, those tickets are going up before you get to test out the bathroom line).

And yet, right now, when you fully admit the value isn’t there, you still don’t cancel.

Lots of huffin’ and puffin’.

If the value isn’t there cancel already and let someone on the waiting list take your spot. No reason to spend money on something you don’t like.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by hah

Isn't the Stampede Corral a historic site? If not, it should be, where are all the SJW when you need them? I love the Corral! SAVE the Corral!

I love the Corral. I hope they find a way to save it, but I think I remember reading that they couldn't.

[ST20]

Originally Posted by Incogneto

The part that you are not thinking about is that your $10K seats are going to be $15K+ (50%+ increase) in the new arena, and all the complaints are only going to get 20% better. 20% quicker bathroom line. 20% better concessions. And I am pretty sure the leg room will NOT increase, and the prices of beer/concessions will go up by 25-50%.

I am a STH, and have been for 15 years. I am pretty sure when the new rink is built, that will be the end of me being a STH. That is when the Game Value gets so far out of whack - and my 4K TV makes viewing at home so much better - that I will save my money.

Everyone is excited for the new shiny object in or city, but they neglect to think about the associated costs with it. Why are we in such a rush for a new arena. It is inevitable, but I am cool to drag this out a couple more years.....

This is a fair point but I would say on the other side of the argument that this is an opportunity to fix the pricing model to be more dynamic. It's a little ridiculous that STHs can pay double the price by just moving one row lower or from crossing one section to another. The current pricing lends itself to some STHs getting extreme value and in many cases just selling all their games while other season ticket holders get very little value and having a tough time selling games that they cannot attend at even cost. One would think that the flames have enough data to properly price the seats now. As an example Vegas season ticket seating chart is shown below. A new arena will allow the flames and fans to seats more aligned to how fans value them. I think the argument for many fans is that why would they pay the same price behind the net or in the corners for the same coloured seats that can be had at centre ice (which are usually all bought up by STHs). Personally, I'm not the biggest fan of centre ice all the way in the back of the second level versus what you can get behind the net but that's not how fans purchase tickets.



vs Flames pricing. A new arena i think would help the majority of season ticket holders and fans for that matter in terms of value (price would naturally be higher but the distribution of the increase should go to the highest demand seats).

[getbak]

Notley officially announced the extension of the Rivers District CRL for an additional 20 years. This will provide funding for the BMO Centre and Arts Commons expansions, as well as infrastructure improvements in East Victoria Park.

[Bunk]

20 year extension. Hmmmm.

I would guess:

$150m for BMO
$100m for Arts Commons
$150m for Vic Park improvements.

.
.
.

Then, $150m for Arena.

$550m in total borrowing.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by ST20

This is a fair point but I would say on the other side of the argument that this is an opportunity to fix the pricing model to be more dynamic. It's a little ridiculous that STHs can pay double the price by just moving one row lower or from crossing one section to another. The current pricing lends itself to some STHs getting extreme value and in many cases just selling all their games while other season ticket holders get very little value and having a tough time selling games that they cannot attend at even cost. One would think that the flames have enough data to properly price the seats now. As an example Vegas season ticket seating chart is shown below. A new arena will allow the flames and fans to seats more aligned to how fans value them. I think the argument for many fans is that why would they pay the same price behind the net or in the corners for the same coloured seats that can be had at centre ice (which are usually all bought up by STHs). Personally, I'm not the biggest fan of centre ice all the way in the back of the second level versus what you can get behind the net but that's not how fans purchase tickets.



vs Flames pricing. A new arena i think would help the majority of season ticket holders and fans for that matter in terms of value (price would naturally be higher but the distribution of the increase should go to the highest demand seats).

Burke mentioned some of this on Tim and Sid talking about how the Saddledome also has an undersized lower bowl throttling their ability to charge for premium seats.

Even in a new arena, there will be price jumps across the aisle. Even the Vegas pic you posted has that. But it is still a better model than the hodgepodge that currently exists at the Saddledome.

That being said the super value tickets in the press level, first few rows especially, that come with food vouchers will go the way of the Dodo bird.

That isn't surprising as their aim is to increase revenue by providing a more optimal value for fans. There will not be any bargain seats because there will not be any bargain or compromised seats/views in the new arena.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by nobles_point

Burke mentioned some of this on Tim and Sid talking about how the Saddledome also has an undersized lower bowl throttling their ability to charge for premium seats.

Even in a new arena, there will be price jumps across the aisle. Even the Vegas pic you posted has that. But it is still a better model than the hodgepodge that currently exists at the Saddledome.

That being said the super value tickets in the press level, first few rows especially, that come with food vouchers will go the way of the Dodo bird.

That isn't surprising as their aim is to increase revenue by providing a more optimal value for fans. There will not be any bargain seats because there will not be any bargain or compromised seats/views in the new arena.

Just take a look at Edmonton, there were I believe 37 different price points for season tickets in the new arena. Up from like 8 or 10 in Rexall, They definitely will be maximizing revenue to its fullest.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

So if your season tickets go up to support a new arena, you’ll make a guess on whether there’s value and if not, you’ll cancel (because rest assured, those tickets are going up before you get to test out the bathroom line).

And yet, right now, when you fully admit the value isn’t there, you still don’t cancel.

Lots of huffin’ and puffin’.

If the value isn’t there cancel already and let someone on the waiting list take your spot. No reason to spend money on something you don’t like.

Anyone one the "waiting list" is waiting for Greens or 1st rows of PL or something. Otherwise there is no actual waiting list anymore. If anyone wants season tickets right now all you have to do is call the Flames and you are in.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

So if your season tickets go up to support a new arena, you’ll make a guess on whether there’s value and if not, you’ll cancel (because rest assured, those tickets are going up before you get to test out the bathroom line).

And yet, right now, when you fully admit the value isn’t there, you still don’t cancel.

Lots of huffin’ and puffin’.

If the value isn’t there cancel already and let someone on the waiting list take your spot. No reason to spend money on something you don’t like.

Thank you for telling me how to spend my money.

Holy ####, some people.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Bunk

20 year extension. Hmmmm.

I would guess:

$150m for BMO
$100m for Arts Commons
$150m for Vic Park improvements.

.
.
.

Then, $150m for Arena.

$550m in total borrowing.

Is this on top of the improvements already slated with the original CRL timeframe or a potential further $150M for improvements?

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by RM14

Anyone one the "waiting list" is waiting for Greens or 1st rows of PL or something. Otherwise, there is no actual waiting list anymore. If anyone wants season tickets right now all you have to do is call the Flames and you are in.

This is true. I joined the Hot House, then I went to the Dome and they told me that the Hot House doesn't really do anything. I bought an 8 game pack to be eligible for season ticket holder playoff tickets.

Not only is there not a waitlist, but you can also purchase a myriad of game options where you sit in the same seat when you attend. 8 game packs, half season packs, and the Flames will coordinate with you to find game sharing options with others.