Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Eric Vail]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Funny story about Pat Quinn -- I met him in 2009, a few days after he'd been named coach of the Oilers. I'd only really started following the Flames the previous season but I already knew that the Oilers=no good.

So I see Pat Quinn at the Alberta Hockey Hall of Fame, he's being inducted that day. So, with my dad, I go up to him and I say, without really thinking, "I'm a HUGE Calgary Flames fan!" My dad just kinda looks at me, and then looks at this giant man who I've just addressed who towers over my dad and especially me.

And Pat sticks out his hand. "See this finger?" He extends his finger. "See this thumb?" His thumb, next. "See this fist, you Flames bum!" And he gives me a soft rap on the shoulder, gives an enormous belly laugh, winks, and says "enjoy the season, although I gotta say, I hope I enjoy it more!" And he has a great chat with my dad, and then goes up on stage to give his induction speech.

Tremendous man, and a moment I'll never forget. RIP Pat Quinn, one of hockey's best men ever.

He's the first captain of the Flames. He must still have a soft spot for the team.

[AC]

Originally Posted by Eric Vail

He's the first captain of the Flames. He must still have a soft spot for the team.

Keith McCreary was before Pat Quinn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlant...#Team_captains

[pylon]

Originally Posted by troutman

The hearsay I get from folks that sometimes visit the owners’s box is that the Flames will not move, an arena deal will get done, and what we are seeing is public posturing.

And then there's this which seems far more believable to me:

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...ns-for-calgary

Nevertheless, a reliable hockey source from Central Canada, who has asked to remain anonymous, says Seattle was never really in the running as an option for the Calgary Flames. Rather, the world’s “richest restaurateur,” Texas billionaire Tilman Fertitta, is trying to import the Flames to Houston, where his NBA team, the Rockets, play and where much of his real-estate empire and restaurants thrive.

Fertitta, who is also the owner of the Golden Nugget Casinos and Hotels, which includes online gaming, has made it clear he wants to see pucks in nets, not just basketballs, and judging from this man’s bio, it appears that he tends to get what he wants.

Also:

After the Seattle deal was announced, Nenshi rubbed salt in the Flames’ wounds again.

“I’m interested in the Seattle news because, of course, that’s over $600 million of private funding,” he told reporters in a scrum. “In fact, it’s the first time I’ve seen an arena deal that has the private funder actually paying for the road and infrastructure improvements as well as making a donation to charity just cause,” said Nenshi. “So, it certainly shows there’s a larger universe of options in getting this kind of infrastructure built perhaps than what we’ve been exposed to.”

And the above is what Nenshi is completely oblivious to. If the CSEC had an incoming NBA team with a 24 billion dollar league TV deal.... they'd probably pony up the dough as well, because now you can turn a profit and pay for an arena with the combined revenue. They do not, and will not ever have an option for a second major tenant. How do people not get this?

These small market Canadian teams only have one choice for a major sports franchise, the NHL. And unless your Toronto or Montreal, public funds is a reality. Our cities need the NHL, waaaaaaaay more than the NHL needs our piss-ant little markets. Florida or Carolina moves.... meh, life goes on for everyone around.

The Flames, Jets, Oilers or Sens move, it's a disaster for the fans. It's all we got, and the long term intangible cost to the City is oodles more than a $500 million dollar building to both fans and non-fans.

[Manhattanboy]

Every time Nenshi opens his mouth on the topic I really do fear we move one step closer to losing the Flames.

[socalwingfan]

I've resigned myself to the Flames leaving to Houston because of Nenshi. Just going to enjoy the few years and then stop following the NHL.

[Moneyhands23]

Id bet that arizona or florida goes to houston before Calgary

[Manhattanboy]

There's a story floating around that until Nenshi shot off his mouth in that Uber, Trudeau had him in mind for Canadian ambassador to the UN.

[pylon]

I just want to share one last thought on this, and I will go back to breaking out in cold sweats at the though of what I believe is the ultimate relocation of the only sports team I've ever been fanatical for. These words came from someone I was debating this whole thing with, and someone that can truly appreciate and understand the implications, and costs involved. This isn't some guy at an Orange Julius, it's a local businessman with a net worth probably around 100-150 million. Not NHL owner money, but he's the type of guy that rubs shoulders with people involved in this. Anyway, his logic really flipped me on this subject, and it is tough to argue with.

Not an exact quote, but pretty much the jist of it:


"Take away the principles involved in this entire debate. Take away the ego's, the chest beating, and the dick measuring. If the city were to even let the Flames move, without fronting them the entire cost of the building, it is still a net loss for the the city, and in short order. Potentially as little as 5 -10 years. Do I think the city should front 100%? No. And they do not have to. But even in that no-win scenario where it was the only option left, it's still a better long term scenario mathematically for the City to buy the team an arena and hand them the keys. The 'goodwill' and exposure the team brings the City is worth far more than the cost of an arena. Goodwill can be the most the most valuable asset of any business, and in the Flames case, the intangible goodwill enjoyed by the city, far exceeds what is enjoyed by the owners of the team, and by an excessively large margin. The biggest loser would be the City, not the team owners."

Tough to argue a guy that made a fortune that size. He's far more qualified to analyze than I am.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by pylon

And then there's this which seems far more believable to me:

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...ns-for-calgary

If the CSEC had an incoming NBA team with a 24 billion dollar league TV deal.... they'd probably pony up the dough as well, because now you can turn a profit and pay for an arena with the combined revenue. They do not, and will not ever have an option for a second major tenant. How do people not get this?

From your own article:

...it’s considered improbable that NBA team owners will want to dilute those profits by adding another team prior to the expiration of that deal.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

From your own article:

And it's also improbable that they won't sign a similar or more valuable deal once this one expires.

[Manhattanboy]

Without the Flames Calgary becomes the next, Winnipeg. Oh wait... Darn.

Which reminds me of a funny story which I think I posted a while back. Prior to the Jets relocation from Atlanta I was at a luncheon at the Carriage House Hotel where Bettman was guest speaker. During the Q&A a dude gets up and says, "Mr. Bettman, I'm from Winnipeg originally and I would like to know when the NHL is moving back to Winnipeg?" Without missing a beat Bettman replies, "Oh ya, when are you moving back?!"

The place erupts in laughter and Bettman apologizes, saying he had been waiting for the first chance to say that.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by pylon

And it's also improbable that they won't sign a similar or more valuable deal once this one expires.

Given the way cable is going, ratings have been going, major networks losing money on big deals, nobody is betting on any such things 5 years out nevermind 10 years out.

You're certainly not investing close to $2B in arena renovations and expansion fees banking on it either.

[DiracSpike]

"I’m interested in the Seattle news because, of course, that’s over $600 million of private funding,” he told reporters in a scrum. “In fact, it’s the first time I’ve seen an arena deal that has the private funder actually paying for the road and infrastructure improvements as well as making a donation to charity just cause,” said Nenshi. “So, it certainly shows there’s a larger universe of options in getting this kind of infrastructure built perhaps than what we’ve been exposed to.”

Jeeze Nenshi, it's almost as if Seattle isn't at all a direct comparable to Calgary for a multitude of reasons.

[memphusk]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

"I’m interested in the Seattle news because, of course, that’s over $600 million of private funding,” he told reporters in a scrum. “In fact, it’s the first time I’ve seen an arena deal that has the private funder actually paying for the road and infrastructure improvements as well as making a donation to charity just cause,” said Nenshi. “So, it certainly shows there’s a larger universe of options in getting this kind of infrastructure built perhaps than what we’ve been exposed to.”

Jeeze Nenshi, it's almost as if Seattle isn't at all a direct comparable to Calgary for a multitude of reasons.

I have not read enough of the Seattle stuff, but what kind of tax break does the Seattle group get from doing everything privately?

[GGG]

He also ignores that Seattle gave up a parking structure that makes a pile of money so did subsidize the Arena in the 8-10 million per year. Though the Seattle Arena arroyo will pay property taxes. The Seattle offer is pretty close to the city of Calgary offer. Though Seattle is picking up infrastructure

Nenshi should take his big win in the election and shut up about the Arena now. His only response should be that each city is unique and are willing to work with the Flames to find a partnership that works.

[110%]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

There's a story floating around that until Nenshi shot off his mouth in that Uber, Trudeau had him in mind for Canadian ambassador to the UN.

Doubtful. Marc-Andre Blanchard was appointed in January 2016. Nenshi made his comments to the Lyft driver in April 2016. Blanchard was heavily involved with the transition of power after the 2015 election.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by GGG

He also ignores that Seattle gave up a parking structure that makes a pile of money so did subsidize the Arena in the 8-10 million per year.

By 'gave up' do you mean OVG will pay a fee for rights to the parking revenue that includes a formula ensuring the city reaches an agreed tax revenue baseline?

Small price to pay in exchange for hundreds of millions in arena improvements, guaranteed a minimum $113M in rent over the course of the lease, which in order to be extended the management group needs to invest at least $139M more.

But those are the deals you get when you have people competing for the project. Seattle was in an enviable position.

The Seattle offer is pretty close to the city of Calgary offer. Though Seattle is picking up infrastructure

They aren't remotely close, how'd you come to that? Calgary's offer has the city putting up cash and managing construction debt. The Seattle contribution is selling off potential revenue for a baseline amount of revenue to avoid having to finance any construction debt.

[Jbo]

Francis (ugh) weighs in

http://ow.ly/OhDz30h9NkE

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by Jbo

Francis (ugh) weighs in

http://ow.ly/OhDz30h9NkE

Refuse to click.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Jbo

Francis (ugh) weighs in

http://ow.ly/OhDz30h9NkE

Alright, well that article was largely garbage.

That being said though, both sides have to move on the equation. I understand the City's position, but they have admittedly cheated just as much as the Flames may have in terms of their valuations of their contributions.

Each side has to move to get this done, and it should and (IMO) will get done. But neither proposal at the moment is going to get us over the finish-line on this.