[PGT] Flames lose to Hurricanes 3-2

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Two days off to regroup. Use it well.

Next game is against the Panthers, who are dealing with similar underperformance problems. However, because of the recent shootout loss and the connection with key players coming home, I would expect a strong effort from them.

After that is the Canadiens. See above for players coming home. An easier team to play overall, but not a gimme.

Then the Caps come to town. Kuemper has the Flames' number, so I don't have great hopes if he plays.

We might not got a lot of points in the next few games either. I sincerely hope that there's something that pulls this team together, because they don't seem to be playing that hard for one another.

That's the thing that Darryl got the group to do last year, but it's missing for some reason now. Find camaraderie and purpose and this team will do good things.

Or not, and that's fine too. Good year to get a higher draft pick if that's the way things work out. I'll find the positive in anything that isn't "the team is moving".

This team doesnt need another 13-23 draft pick though. it needs a good run or a high pick. Trending towards neither

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by soulchoice

Cecil, are we more talented though, in reality?

Let’s do a comparison, Tkachuk is much more of an offensive threat than Kadri is, and I do not think the defensive acumen between them is overwhelming different. Note, I do think Kadri was a good addition, as we needed the second line center. But, as good as Kadri is, he has never been a consistent offensive threat and is most effective on a second line.

If you go by the numbers, Tkachuk has had better possession and defensive numbers than Kadri throughout their respective careers.

If you go by % possession, Tkachuk has had really strong numbers overall. He is consistently where Kadri was in his two best seasons.

If you go by more defensive oriented stats like SA/60, GA/60, and XGA/60, Tkachuk is better in all of them.

For example Tkachuk's worst season for CA/60 is 54.55.

Kadri has two seasons better than Tkachuk's poorest, and nine worse.

Its pretty much the same story in every metric one wants to look at. Kadri has a reputation larger than his results when it comes to defensive acumen. Left over hype from his time in Toronto, where he was a popular figure?


https://www.naturalstattrick.com/pla...ayerid=8475172

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/pla...ayerid=8479314

[soulchoice]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

If you go by the numbers, Tkachuk has had better possession and defensive numbers than Kadri throughout their respective careers.

If you go by % possession, Tkachuk has had really strong numbers overall. He is consistently where Kadri was in his two best seasons.

If you go by more defensive oriented stats like SA/60, GA/60, and XGA/60, Tkachuk is better in all of them.

For example Tkachuk's worst season for CA/60 is 54.55.

Kadri has two seasons better than Tkachuk's poorest, and nine worse.

Its pretty much the same story in every metric one wants to look at. Kadri has a reputation larger than his results when it comes to defensive acumen. Left over hype from his time in Toronto, where he was a popular figure?


https://www.naturalstattrick.com/pla...ayerid=8475172

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/pla...ayerid=8479314

I am not surprised by this at all. Great info.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Yamer

It appears I have much more leash to give to this group than the majority of posters. 21 games is still super early after all that happened in the offseason.

I'm still confident they get it figured out.

Are you really? It’s cool to be a contrarian but I think the sample size is large enough to conclude that this team is in big trouble.

The new stars are a huge disappointment.

I would even prefer Nylander to Kadri at this point.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Re: Oil Stain’s stats

That to me says something significant about Backlund and Lindholm.

Keith Tkachuk did observe that Matthew benefitted from being on a line with Backs.

Tkachuk is an elite player, no doubt. Paired with a good 200 foot C, you’d expect good results

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by soulchoice

Cecil, are we more talented though, in reality?

Let’s do a comparison, Tkachuk is much more of an offensive threat than Kadri is, and I do not think the defensive acumen between them is overwhelming different. Note, I do think Kadri was a good addition, as we needed the second line center. But, as good as Kadri is, he has never been a consistent offensive threat and is most effective on a second line.

On the Johnny G vs Huby front, sure Huby had consistent and great numbers whilst in Florida, but he has never had to be the main guy on the team. That was Barkov. Johnny G on the other hand was the main catalyst and always faced the toughest match ups, yet still produced comparable numbers to Huby, despite not playing in a free wheeling system.

Sure, we added Weeger, so that may tip the scales on the defensive front, arguably more talented. But, when it comes to offensive talent/forwards, I do think the flames are less dangerous and talented than last year. Losing 2 bonifide first line players is a tough task for any team to overcome.

I think this post summarizes this season’s version of the Flames very well. The preseason predictions of the Flames being one of the top Stanley Cup contenders, reflected the surprising salvage job Treliving did when faced with the loss of the two forward stars of the team. However, the trade and free agent signings, as good as they appeared on paper, have clearly not been an improvement over last year - certainly not adequate replacements for Gaudreau and Tkachuk.

As a group, the forwards are much weaker in scoring ability, and while Weegar is probably an upgrade on Gudbranson, Tanev is not as good as last year (maybe still recovering from last year’s shoulder problems). Add in the loss of Kylington, and the defense is not as good as last year’s group. And then there’s Markstrom’s struggles.

Maybe there’s hope for improvement of all of the above weaknesses, but I think the team is simply not as good as last year’s version - at best, a contender for a playoff position.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Are you really? It’s cool to be a contrarian but I think the sample size is large enough to conclude that this team is in big trouble.

The new stars are a huge disappointment.

I would even prefer Nylander to Kadri at this point.

I am, and I don't think I'm being a contrarian. 30-35 games is a more realistic measure considering the circumstances.

[Kasi]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Are you really? It’s cool to be a contrarian but I think the sample size is large enough to conclude that this team is in big trouble.

The new stars are a huge disappointment.

I would even prefer Nylander to Kadri at this point.

Well the question is is it the stars being bad or is it that they just don’t want to give their all for this coach? There is some signs that they’re tuning him out. Look at Kadri first month compared to now or the issues with Huberdeau. Now I don’t know what coach could fix it but I think there are coaches who could get better out of this team.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Kasi

Well the question is is it the stars being bad or is it that they just don’t want to give their all for this coach? There is some signs that they’re tuning him out. Look at Kadri first month compared to now or the issues with Huberdeau. Now I don’t know what coach could fix it but I think there are coaches who could get better out of this team.

I don’t think it’s a question about “stars” tuning him out.

The only star this team has is Huberdeau, who is being punished for a bad start and it makes no sense to me.

Huberdeau is the *only* star this team has, and that right there is what will limit this team. This league is about game breaking talent, and we only have one player capable of doing that - and that’s not enough.

To make matters worse, our one star is being artificially limited by moronic line combinations.

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by Steve Bozek

I think this post summarizes this season’s version of the Flames very well. The preseason predictions of the Flames being one of the top Stanley Cup contenders, reflected the surprising salvage job Treliving did when faced with the loss of the two forward stars of the team. However, the trade and free agent signings, as good as they appeared on paper, have clearly not been an improvement over last year - certainly not adequate replacements for Gaudreau and Tkachuk.

As a group, the forwards are much weaker in scoring ability, and while Weegar is probably an upgrade on Gudbranson, Tanev is not as good as last year (maybe still recovering from last year’s shoulder problems). Add in the loss of Kylington, and the defense is not as good as last year’s group. And then there’s Markstrom’s struggles.

Maybe there’s hope for improvement of all of the above weaknesses, but I think the team is simply not as good as last year’s version - at best, a contender for a playoff position.

This team will perform the same as most flames teams ever had. Within a relatively narrow range around mediocre. Sometimes doing a bit better than that sometimes doing a bit worse.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I don’t think it’s a question about “stars” tuning him out.

The only star this team has is Huberdeau, who is being punished for a bad start and it makes no sense to me.

Huberdeau is the *only* star this team has, and that right there is what will limit this team. This league is about game breaking talent, and we only have one player capable of doing that - and that’s not enough.

To make matters worse, our one star is being artificially limited by moronic line combinations.

The runners up for two of the most major individual trophies in the league are on the team.

We can argue about their performance this season, but there are definitely players capable of being stars on the team.

Unrelated, but $1.3M for Kevin Rooney for this year and next? What in his past suggested he was worth $500k more than Trevor Lewis? And now he's getting 8:53 a game. I would have rather rolled the dice on one of the Wranglers and pocketed the cap savings for a deadline deal.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by butterfly

The runners up for two of the most major individual trophies in the league are on the team.

We can argue about their performance this season, but there are definitely players capable of being stars on the team.

Unrelated, but $1.3M for Kevin Rooney for this year and next? What in his past suggested he was worth $500k more than Trevor Lewis? And now he's getting 8:53 a game. I would have rather rolled the dice on one of the Wranglers and pocketed the cap savings for a deadline deal.

Markstrom is the worst starting goalie in the league. Goaltending is a highly volatile position. He is not star. He has a long history of inconsistent play.

Lindholm was up for the Selke based on a season when he was playing with two of the best wingers in the entire league and they were out-scoring the opposition when they were on the ice at a pace unseen in what? 30 years? He also has a career worth of years prior to that where this wasn't the case.

One-off years are just that.

Sutter even nails this again tonight in the post-game presser and tells Wes "you're going places you shouldn't be going - we had three 40 goal scorers last year. This is a different operation." in reference to "difference makers" on this team this season. Darryl is fully aware that this team is under-skilled.

[Ferarri]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Besides being boring, I think this team just isn't very likeable as a whole.

This is exactly how I feel. The team just isn’t likeable. Top six talent is very poor and the bottom six is a bunch of plugs who are Sutter boys. There is a serious devoid of elite talent and it makes watching games tough. Look at the PP and it will tell you all you need to know. Unit one barely sustains any offensive pressure and they don’t look dangerous at all.

Not sure what I’m missing with Huberdeau but he has not been as advertised. Granted I didn’t watch many Florida games last year but his play is very underwhelming. Not sure how he put up so many points when that top level skill is invisible. Sure chemistry is a factor and being on the third line with Backlund and Coleman won’t produce much but it didn’t work on lines one and two either.

Coaching hasn’t been a bright spot either but that is far from being the main concern with this group. What really makes me mad is the refusal to inject some youth in the lineup (yes I know there are cap constraints and moves that would need to be made) but this franchise hasn’t exactly been the model of success over its existence. Perhaps some radical moves or thinking outside of the box could produce better results. Like I said, this franchise seems to do everything wrong so maybe a new strategy would be welcomed. Also the comments about letting Markstrom figure it out and he’s our guy from Tree and Sutter is extremely frustrating. Vlad is playing well and should be rewarded.

Team isn’t great and you can tell there is a talent gap, however, we are our own worst enemy at times. There are many adjustments that could be made but the guys running the show want to be the smartest guy in the room. It gets tiring after awhile.

[NewFan]

I think this team is missing a something. Can't really clear the puck, can't pass, and can't find their linemates.
Last year when they got the puck they were very good at transition to rush attack. Now they just can't win the puck battles, and nobody supports anybody. Acting like I am just doing what coaches told me to do.
Now they stopped doing long pass to front, or nobody can or wants receive long passes from D.

[Yoho]

I wish we would have traded for picks the return for Chucky and rebuilt.

[calgarywinning]

Better to slump starting out. The talent is there. The teams assembled, but they did look so bad and lost. They need to get together and have some pops and watch some world cup. Yes I am quoting fan960.

[calgarywinning]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

... not really. They're a bad season or two away from looking like San Jose.

Another first round bust.

This team is slumping and will find its way. The only bad metrics is the main goal tender and things will normalize.

San Jose killed themselves capsize way. Our GM way better and his paper results will eventually pan out.

I think the main point is if you wanted a rebuild we could do it rapidly, I just don't see it with all the talent, and yes we do miss Johnny Gaudreau and not David Jones.

[TheScorpion]

lmao David Jones jokes in 2022?

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

If you go by the numbers, Tkachuk has had better possession and defensive numbers than Kadri throughout their respective careers.

If you go by % possession, Tkachuk has had really strong numbers overall. He is consistently where Kadri was in his two best seasons.

If you go by more defensive oriented stats like SA/60, GA/60, and XGA/60, Tkachuk is better in all of them.

For example Tkachuk's worst season for CA/60 is 54.55.

Kadri has two seasons better than Tkachuk's poorest, and nine worse.

Its pretty much the same story in every metric one wants to look at. Kadri has a reputation larger than his results when it comes to defensive acumen. Left over hype from his time in Toronto, where he was a popular figure?


https://www.naturalstattrick.com/pla...ayerid=8475172

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/pla...ayerid=8479314

If you have the time. Please post Tkachuks reg season vs post season metrics. Then I'd like to see Tkachuks post season metrics vs Kadris.

Without digging into the advanced stats, which is what i'm asking you to do, I see Tkachuk has 15 pts in 27 playoffs games and was commanding 10+ million, if you've watched the Flames you'd know he's a disappearing act come post season time. Kadri has 44 pts in 52 post season games and tends to elevate his game.

Now of course we have to make the post season first, but if I'm paying Tkachuk 10 or more, or Kadri is available at 7. I'm taking Kadri regardless of age. We know what Tkachuk is in the post season, hes had 5 years to show us.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Markstrom is the worst starting goalie in the league. Goaltending is a highly volatile position. He is not star. He has a long history of inconsistent play.

Lindholm was up for the Selke based on a season when he was playing with two of the best wingers in the entire league and they were out-scoring the opposition when they were on the ice at a pace unseen in what? 30 years? He also has a career worth of years prior to that where this wasn't the case.

One-off years are just that.

Sutter even nails this again tonight in the post-game presser and tells Wes "you're going places you shouldn't be going - we had three 40 goal scorers last year. This is a different operation." in reference to "difference makers" on this team this season. Darryl is fully aware that this team is under-skilled.

That’s just wrong. Among goaltenders with at least 9 GP (closest I can get to a “starter” cutoff, with 36 qualifying) Markstrom is:

22nd in Goals Saved Above Expected/60
21st in Save% Above Expected
22nd in GAA
21st in GAA better than expected

Etc. Slightly below average. If he was the worst starter in the league, how good would the skaters have to have been to be in the playoffs as of…yesterday? We know that’s not the case.

If you look at the stats, the people who are below expectations are Huberdeau, Weegar, Mangiapane, Markstrom. Everyone else is right around where they were expected to be except Ruzicka (above expectations).