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Old 11-29-2022, 03:58 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by Enoch Root View Post
Yeah, and I don't disagree with that. Though, mid-rotation guys are what you're going to get at the deadline. For me, the problem is that the Flames buy at the deadline too often, they need to be a little more discriminating. I was fine with it last year, but it shouldn't be done every year (unless you're on a Tampa-like run)
I just don't think you're under any obligation to ever make Ryan Carpenter or Oscar Fantenberg or Nick Shore moves. But that's more of a philosophical asset management thing.

I'm very curious to see how the Flames move forward now. I think they'd be remiss to move more futures before they give Jakob Pelletier a look.
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Old 11-29-2022, 03:59 PM   #342
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No but you're defusing your own point.

It's not a lack of opportunity because you agree

1) they traded away too many picks
2) nobody that wasn't given an opportunity has really gone on to do anything

So it's down to trading picks and whether or not that was a good idea. Last year they were in a position where if they didn't add you'd be choked as they had a legitimate chance to win and added what should have been a solid veteran forward that could play the wing or the middle.
They made the Toffoli addition, which was terrific. Adding Jarnkrok, sure, fine, good — but why not try Pelletier first? That's an addition in its own right and it doesn't cost you a thing.
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Old 11-29-2022, 04:01 PM   #343
Lanny_McDonald
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Come on Bingo, the Flames have been this way for years, especially when there is a Sutter involved. I know you like to point to the incredible job the Flames have done with drafting and promoting talent, and use Andersson, Kylington, Mangiapane, and Dube as examples, but who did they break in under?

Andersson - Bill Peters
Kylington - Bill Peters
Mangipange - Bill Peters
Dube - Bill Peters

Pretty scary that all of these guys got their chance and stuck under Bill Peters. Who has Sutter given a break to? Ruzicka? Who he sits if he farts funny on the bench, while Rooney, Lucic, and Lewis have runny ####s out on the ice. There's a problem there and the Flames need to address it or start dumping these undersized young guys for players Sutter will give a chance. The team is crap because of the players Sutter loves to deploy - way too often.
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Old 11-29-2022, 04:30 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Bingo View Post
No but you're defusing your own point.

It's not a lack of opportunity because you agree

1) they traded away too many picks
2) nobody that wasn't given an opportunity has really gone on to do anything

So it's down to trading picks and whether or not that was a good idea. Last year they were in a position where if they didn't add you'd be choked as they had a legitimate chance to win and added what should have been a solid veteran forward that could play the wing or the middle.
There is no argument that Phillips, Pelletier, Ruzicka, and even Gawdin to a lesser extent deserved an opportunity sooner.

Why were Josh Leivo, Joakim Nordstrom playing more games than guys like Glenn Gawdin, Adam Ruzicka, and Matthew Phillips during the 20-21 season?

Kent Wilson and others always coin the term "No Upside Veterans vs Young Developing Players". NHL management in Calgary always seems to prefer no upside veterans, and honestly it doesn't work, Flames results speak for themselves.

I disagree with the sentiment that there is no such thing as "too much time in the AHL". At some point in order to take the next step in your development you need to be playing with / against NHLers, and I think it's hurting our prospect development. It's what makes our training camp so frustrating too - these guys don't even get a chance to share the ice with NHL talent in pre-season anymore.

Maybe if they gave Phillips or Pelletier a chance last year prior to the Jarnkork trade then they don't need to make the Jarnkrok trade.

If they give Phillips or Ruzicka more of a look in 20-21 down the stretch maybe they don't go trade picks for Tyler Pitlick that offseason.

Maybe you still make those deals, but maybe they wouldn't always be in a pick deficit if they give these guys a look to start with.

The Colorado Avalanche were the best team in the league last year. Alex Newhook and Jakob Pelletier's size and pedigree isn't that different - they found a way to play him for 96 NHL games since he was drafted even though he's only played 18 AHL games. Pelletier can't get one.

Phillips and Pelletier have both earned a look, and Zary is getting close but at this point it's clearly just the coaches stubbornness that has prevented an opportunity. Last year Brad Richardson, Tyler Pitlick, Brett Ritchie, & Ryan Carpenter combined for 101 GP. Ruzicka got 28, Gawdin 2, Phillips 0, and Pelletier 0. That's ridiculous.

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Old 11-29-2022, 04:33 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by Enoch Root View Post
Yeah, criticizing moves like that in hindsight is pretty weak. The Flames were in a legitimate position to take a deep run last year, and Jarnkrok looked like a good add. It didn't work out. But it was still a good decision at the time.
I'm not against evaluating a GM's moves in hindsight to an extent. The effectiveness and fit of the players targeted is important and it's a results business. I loved the Jarnkrok add too, but the price seemed steep for a player that didn't attract much UFA attention this summer.

The organization's track record of giving out middle picks for bottom roster players speaks for itself really. The misses sure seem to outnumber the hits.
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Old 11-29-2022, 05:40 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by SuperMatt18 View Post
There is no argument that Phillips, Pelletier, Ruzicka, and even Gawdin to a lesser extent deserved an opportunity sooner.

Why were Josh Leivo, Joakim Nordstrom playing more games than guys like Glenn Gawdin, Adam Ruzicka, and Matthew Phillips during the 20-21 season?

Kent Wilson and others always coin the term "No Upside Veterans vs Young Developing Players". NHL management in Calgary always seems to prefer no upside veterans, and honestly it doesn't work, Flames results speak for themselves.

I disagree with the sentiment that there is no such thing as "too much time in the AHL". At some point in order to take the next step in your development you need to be playing with / against NHLers, and I think it's hurting our prospect development. It's what makes our training camp so frustrating too - these guys don't even get a chance to share the ice with NHL talent in pre-season anymore.

Maybe if they gave Phillips or Pelletier a chance last year prior to the Jarnkork trade then they don't need to make the Jarnkrok trade.

If they give Phillips or Ruzicka more of a look in 20-21 down the stretch maybe they don't go trade picks for Tyler Pitlick that offseason.


Maybe you still make those deals, but maybe they wouldn't always be in a pick deficit if they give these guys a look to start with.

The Colorado Avalanche were the best team in the league last year. Alex Newhook and Jakob Pelletier's size and pedigree isn't that different - they found a way to play him for 96 NHL games since he was drafted even though he's only played 18 AHL games. Pelletier can't get one.

Phillips and Pelletier have both earned a look, and Zary is getting close but at this point it's clearly just the coaches stubbornness that has prevented an opportunity. Last year Brad Richardson, Tyler Pitlick, Brett Ritchie, & Ryan Carpenter combined for 101 GP. Ruzicka got 28, Gawdin 2, Phillips 0, and Pelletier 0. That's ridiculous.
This is one of the reasons I think the Flames should look at bringing guys up this season and allowing them some time to develop and grow into the NHL game. I have felt this season we just don't have the horses to go all the way. Let's just say that Calgary doesn't make the playoffs this season then what, we have to wait until next season to trade for or add more players who then will have to find chemistry and learn the system. Why would we want to do that during next season?

Does this team as it stands seem like a potential SC team? I have a hard time believing the guys we have now and along with those who are struggling will suddenly come together and take us all the way. In my opinion bringing in some hungry young guys now to push Eat bread and Dube to play harder would create some positive challenges, and who knows maybe the addition of young guys surprises us makes the playoffs! Are the Flames afraid to take risks and grow, the lack of an opportunity at this point for Phillips makes it seem so.
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Old 11-29-2022, 05:49 PM   #347
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I don't think we'll see a call-up unless there is an injury.

Treliving is trying to maximize the cap come trade deadline. I think that's why he signed guys like Gilbert and DeSimone. League min guys you can call up and down without worrying about them getting claimed. It's a shame Mackey didn't step up but I doubt Tre risks losing ANOTHER depth D by sending him down.

Phillips does benefit from being signed to a league min contract. If any forward is injured I'm sure he's the first call-up. Just need to be patient here.
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Old 11-29-2022, 06:06 PM   #348
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I think they should trade Lucic and cycle players up from the farm. If the room implodes so be it. The cap flexibility alone makes it worth it. Lucic has been a gamer for us but he's way too slow and unskilled at this point and I don't see the need for his enforcer role.
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Old 11-29-2022, 07:00 PM   #349
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I don't think we'll see a call-up unless there is an injury.
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Old 11-29-2022, 07:06 PM   #350
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Old 11-29-2022, 07:07 PM   #351
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I have serious concerns about Coronato now singing with us with this coach here.
Any song in particular that concerns you?
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Old 11-29-2022, 07:14 PM   #352
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Any song in particular that concerns you?
Sutter likes both kinds of music: Country. And Western.
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