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Old 01-29-2020, 11:39 AM   #21
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I know this is a keto thread, I don't mean to hijack.

For you guys doing IF, are you drinking coffee in the morning? Even black? From what I understand, if you intake anything other than water, it kickstarts your liver, and takes you out of a true fast. Then you're essentially on calorie control.

What I don't know, is if the added benefits of being in a true fast are negligible over basically reducing your caloric intake.

I think that's where the waters start to get muddied on IF studies.
(Sorry for continuing the hijack)

I've read a bunch of conflicting information about whether or not coffee breaks the fast, touching on everything from the caffein to caloric value. Frankly, I need my coffee, especially during a fast, and I'm still seeing results I'm happy with.
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Old 01-29-2020, 11:43 AM   #22
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Noom.

If you want to learn how to have a healthy relationship with food and your psychology around eating.

I'm down 50 pounds and losing weight still. And I don't have bad days, because there is no such thing on this nutrition program.
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Old 01-29-2020, 12:47 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by you&me View Post
(Sorry for continuing the hijack)

I've read a bunch of conflicting information about whether or not coffee breaks the fast, touching on everything from the caffein to caloric value. Frankly, I need my coffee, especially during a fast, and I'm still seeing results I'm happy with.
Yes, they had a thing on Dr Oz the other day and it didn't seem to matter if you had a black coffee. I personally have my coffee with Stevia and cream and I had done fine. I do the 16-8 fast minus the coffee.
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Old 01-29-2020, 01:08 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Wastedyouth View Post
Noom.

If you want to learn how to have a healthy relationship with food and your psychology around eating.

I'm down 50 pounds and losing weight still. And I don't have bad days, because there is no such thing on this nutrition program.
Noom uses Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and that's fascinating to me. It sounds like an interesting and positive approach to eating. I don't mean to further derail the keto thread but I'd be very intrigued to hear more about your experience with it.
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Old 01-29-2020, 01:32 PM   #25
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another thing I found on Keto was I get more energy, and I can ride further. When doing Gran Fondo's, while eating healthy, but lots of carbs, I always would bonk sometime after 80kms. I need extra sports drinks and gels to get me to the finish, but with Keto, I don't bonk.


But, everybody is different. It doesn't work for some. I've always done better with less carbs. I still eat lots of vegetables, but no more high glycemic carbs...except at Christmas time...and camping.
It's common to hear this for long, endurance exercise as the energy release of ketones is more steady.

For more high intensity sports however (hockey, soccer, combat sports etc) or just weight lifting for muscle growth, jury is definitely still out.
I've struggles to find examples of athletes in those fields who are full time keto.
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Old 01-29-2020, 01:36 PM   #26
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Intermittent fasting is the ####. I do an 18ish hour fast and try and keep my calories under 1600 for the day.

I dont believe in keto as I don't think I'd sustain it long term, but I try and limit net carbs to 80 a day.
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You are doing exactly what I just started. IF, 1600 unless I'm doing a gym day then I go to 2100....and no booze.

First week I dropped 6.2 lbs.
What are your guys starting weight or TDEE?
1600 calories seems very very low; but it depends on your body.
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Old 01-29-2020, 01:46 PM   #27
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I did 4 months of keto and lost 40 lbs. Are 1700cal a day, very disciplined very delicious food. Lots of veg with fats on it, some proteins added, saved carb allotment for a small cup of berries and cream or for something indulgent.

Took a lot of lessons away from my experience with it and typically eat a lower carb , higher veg diet now that I think is sustainable.

My time in a proper, healthy keto diet resulted in better sleeps, better digestion, clear headedness, better skin (eczema), and weight loss. Also, it got me used to drinking liquor with soda and lime or bitters.

I'm a huge supporter, just don't be an idiot and only eat meat, eggs, and cheese. You'll lose weight but it can't be good
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Old 01-29-2020, 01:46 PM   #28
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My wife started and I was thinking of joining her.

I'm an evening snacker.
what do you eat for snacks for when you're peckish?

If anyone on Keto needs a good recipe for buns, let me know.
My wife has one she uses to make hotdog and hamburger buns that she says is amazing
There is a good chance you're craving dopamine, not food. We do condition our brains to generate dopamine from a satisfying snack, drink, insert "bad" high reward behaviour here.

This is what IF did the most for me. Allowed me to break that pattern, and re-wire my dopamine pathways.

I ended up finding a small space to tidy up, or called a good friend I hadn't talked to in a long time instead of reaching for the wine, beer, chips, ice cream, chocolate, porn, whatever. It's worked super well to break those cravings, and ever since then I am noticing when my brain is "loud" about something that is more like pleasure seeking.

One unexpected outcome was noticing just how often I found myself going to a restaurant to eat out or just be around the atmosphere.

For the most part, we really aren't good at keeping ourselves satiated and cared for. There are also the headwinds of being blasted by decades of psychological traps laid out by producers to keep us consuming. Learning about those effects is startling.
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Old 01-29-2020, 01:50 PM   #29
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I'd check out the protocol in Robb Wolf's "Wired to Eat". He also offers an online program called the Keto Masterclass that mostly works off the principles in the book, although its more than just a keto diet.

Teaches you a lot about what is setting up this problem, takes you through a 30 day carb reset, and then takes you through a protocol where you can map your specific blood glucose response to specific types of carbs so you can lay out what to avoid, what you can take in sparingly, and what you can eat safely.
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Old 01-29-2020, 02:24 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by sa226 View Post
I know this is a keto thread, I don't mean to hijack.

For you guys doing IF, are you drinking coffee in the morning? Even black? From what I understand, if you intake anything other than water, it kickstarts your liver, and takes you out of a true fast. Then you're essentially on calorie control.

What I don't know, is if the added benefits of being in a true fast are negligible over basically reducing your caloric intake.

I think that's where the waters start to get muddied on IF studies.
I drink coffee every morning. It doesn't do anything for my blood sugar or "kickstart my liver" (whatever that means).
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Old 01-29-2020, 02:37 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc View Post
Noom uses Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and that's fascinating to me. It sounds like an interesting and positive approach to eating. I don't mean to further derail the keto thread but I'd be very intrigued to hear more about your experience with it.
It has completely changed my very poor relationship with food. Feel free to contact me any time. As a person who used to be a really fit athlete with the ####tiest dieting and eating habits on the planet, who yo-yoed and crash his bodies metabolism and health for two decades and who had developed a really bad relationship with food and eating, I can't recommend it more.
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Old 01-29-2020, 02:42 PM   #32
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I would say my only issue with programs like Keto is, they aren't sustainable. You aren't learning how to eat properly, you are tricking your body into losing weight. Which just isn't healthy or sustainable long term. And when you fail on these programs, you often fail hard and the effects on your psyche and body are difficult to deal with.

I lost 50 pounds, and didn't increase a single minute of excercise. I drink, I eat pretty much whatever I want, within reason. You can literally lose weight without tricking yourself or punishing yourself. You just learn how to eat. And learn to treat yourself better.
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Old 01-29-2020, 02:59 PM   #33
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The reduction in calories argument gets old, and I hate that people post such simplistic views on the subject.

IF works because it alters your relationship with food (for most people a relationship that is unhealthy), and it helps you fight the cravings. After two weeks of IF I am literally not hungry anymore after 7 PM. As long as you eat healthy foods during your eating window and make sure you hit your target calories, IF will absolutely work.

That being said, eating less carbs is a goal everyone should go for. Pretty obvious that the whole 'more carbs, less fat' mantra was a complete lie and utter failure in terms of health policy.
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Old 01-29-2020, 03:05 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Wastedyouth View Post
I would say my only issue with programs like Keto is, they aren't sustainable. You aren't learning how to eat properly, you are tricking your body into losing weight. Which just isn't healthy or sustainable long term. And when you fail on these programs, you often fail hard and the effects on your psyche and body are difficult to deal with.

I lost 50 pounds, and didn't increase a single minute of exercise. I drink, I eat pretty much whatever I want, within reason. You can literally lose weight without tricking yourself or punishing yourself. You just learn how to eat. And learn to treat yourself better.
This is my philosophy as well. The easiest diets to maintain are the ones that require the least drastic changes. It's fairly easy to maintain a solid diet, while making relatively minor changes. It's amazing how small yet consistent changes can make a huge difference in someone's physique. For example doing 30 minutes of cardio a few times a week, cutting back on foods like fries, sugary sodas, desserts, creamy sauces, etc... Eating smaller portions.

It's great if people can maintain a keto diet, but the strictness of it and the fact you need to be in ketosis just leads to an attitude where people feel they need to abandon entirely after a slip up.

I do think different things work for different people though, and some people may benefit from the strictness of a diet, like Keto.
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Old 01-29-2020, 03:07 PM   #35
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The reduction in calories argument gets old, and I hate that people post such simplistic views on the subject.

IF works because it alters your relationship with food (for most people a relationship that is unhealthy), and it helps you fight the cravings. After two weeks of IF I am literally not hungry anymore after 7 PM. As long as you eat healthy foods during your eating window and make sure you hit your target calories, IF will absolutely work.

That being said, eating less carbs is a goal everyone should go for. Pretty obvious that the whole 'more carbs, less fat' mantra was a complete lie and utter failure in terms of health policy.
Not sure if this was aimed at my post. But the nutrition program isn't just about caloric intake. It's about understanding why you are hungry. Understanding Satiety triggers and levels and realizing, maybe you aren't hungry, you are eating habitually (or one of many other reasons).

PS. just to direct right to your 7pm thing. There is no actual verifiable or repeatable data that says eating at a specific time effects anything with regards to weight loss/gain.

Eat after 7pm. Eat before. Do whatever you want. Just do it with some control over why you are doing it and your portions.

I barely, if ever, reach my calorie limit after a couple weeks of being on the program. Again, it seems ridiculous, but it worked for me. Especially the CBT and they way it made me think about why I think certain ways, especially towards my diet (the way I eat diet, not caloric deficit diet).
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Old 01-29-2020, 03:25 PM   #36
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Just to finish up because you guys are probably like "screw this weirdo!"

The noom program itself doesn't go on forever. They believe by the end of the 16 weeks you will know how to eat in a manner that is sustainable and works for you.

After about 12 weeks I was already there. I don't use the app or any of the support stuff anymore, even though I paid for it for the 16 weeks.

My weight still is dropping, by the week. I've gone from 117kgs to 95 kgs since Sept 10th. My short term goal is 90kgs, with 80kgs my long term one. And I can't see myself not making it as I don't really have to think about what I'm eating anymore, I just eat. And my. Weight is still steadily coming off about .5kgs a week (or sometimes 0kgs, if I drink too much on the weekend).

Do what works for you. Noom might not be it for you. But I was hopeless before I started it and was planning on being 260lbs for the rest of my life.
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Old 01-29-2020, 03:32 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Wastedyouth View Post
Not sure if this was aimed at my post. But the nutrition program isn't just about caloric intake. It's about understanding why you are hungry. Understanding Satiety triggers and levels and realizing, maybe you aren't hungry, you are eating habitually (or one of many other reasons).

PS. just to direct right to your 7pm thing. There is no actual verifiable or repeatable data that says eating at a specific time effects anything with regards to weight loss/gain.

Eat after 7pm. Eat before. Do whatever you want. Just do it with some control over why you are doing it and your portions.

I barely, if ever, reach my calorie limit after a couple weeks of being on the program. Again, it seems ridiculous, but it worked for me. Especially the CBT and they way it made me think about why I think certain ways, especially towards my diet (the way I eat diet, not caloric deficit diet).
It was actually aimed at Troutman, someone who has a habit of coming into threads of posting fancy images with absolutely zero context.

I agree with most of everything you are saying.

The eating window thing is important I feel. For a lot of people eating after 7PM equals unhealthy foods. Finding a discipline that works for you is important.

If we follow along with IF and some of the people that are heavily researching it (Dr. Jason Fung) it becomes rather obvious that it can make a huge difference in people's lives, while also being a sustainable eating pattern.

Again, I don't necessarily eat different on IF other than being able to fight after 7 PM cravings. I've never been a breakfast person, and I find it easy to not eat in the morning till noon.

Most people who work with a 16:8 pattern tend to have more energy, not bloated, cleaner skin, etc, etc after a couple weeks. It simply works great.
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Old 01-29-2020, 03:34 PM   #38
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Lol, ok.

I was mis-reading IF as the actual work if, just capitalized. So I thought you were getting upset.

Apparently reading comprehension isn't my strong suit.

Noom, by the way, is meant to be used in conjunction with any eating discipline you want. Keto, vegan, IF, gluten-free.

It doesn't restrict or require any specific type of food or eating schedule (in fact they tell you to break the bonds of your old standard eating schedules and try new things).

Last edited by Wastedyouth; 01-29-2020 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 01-29-2020, 03:38 PM   #39
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It was actually aimed at Troutman, someone who has a habit of coming into threads of posting fancy images with absolutely zero context.

I agree with most of everything you are saying.

The eating window thing is important I feel. For a lot of people eating after 7PM equals unhealthy foods. Finding a discipline that works for you is important.

If we follow along with IF and some of the people that are heavily researching it (Dr. Jason Fung) it becomes rather obvious that it can make a huge difference in people's lives, while also being a sustainable eating pattern.

Again, I don't necessarily eat different on IF other than being able to fight after 7 PM cravings. I've never been a breakfast person, and I find it easy to not eat in the morning till noon.

Most people who work with a 16:8 pattern tend to have more energy, not bloated, cleaner skin, etc, etc after a couple weeks. It simply works great.
I find this funny, because I've tailored my eating window to end at ~10pm, to specifically allow for evening snacks (and who am I kidding, a glass of wine or cocktail). If I'm a little later one evening, I just start later then next day. Generally, I fast from 10PM - 2PM, but often am busy in the afternoons and find I'm not eating until 3 or even 4PM. I find by skipping breakfast and lunch that it's quite easy to control my caloric intake with having only one formal meal at dinner time.
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Old 01-29-2020, 03:43 PM   #40
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I keep my carbs limited and run a calorie deficit along with intermittent fasting (18/6) whenever I want to drop a few pounds. Works every time for me so far.

I do push ups, pull ups and kettle bell swings one exercise per day and rotate through them and mix in a day off here and there. I don't like working out so i just do the bare minimum to stay somewhat in shape.

I also wear a fitbit and make sure i hit my distance, steps, active minutes and calories burned goals every day.

Sometimes i also get on a cardio kick and thats when i will mix in a 10 to 15 minute HIIT workout a couple times per week.

Nothing to strenuous for this guy or I just won't stick to it.
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