08-24-2021, 08:13 PM
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#101
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch Root
he started with what? seven straight wins? Can we assume those are on him? I am not sure we can.
After that? basically 500 (pt%age). This team is more talented than that.
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Couple that with our early wins this past season being thanks to a PP that was on fire - which Matthew Tkachuk openly said they didn’t even practice because of the condensed camp.
…Ward was awful as a head coach, and an absolutely moronic hire.
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08-24-2021, 08:20 PM
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#102
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch Root
he started with what? seven straight wins? Can we assume those are on him? I am not sure we can.
After that? basically 500 (pt%age). This team is more talented than that.
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So you take those wins away because? His record is his record...if you are gonna start taking away a winning streak take away a losing streak too that may have been the goalies fault ect.
Sutter is better but Ward wasn't the worst coach, at some point these players need to step up. Basically the last chance...if it fails are we gonna say that Sutter has lost it and bail out the players again? If Sutter can't get these guys going its pretty tough to blame Wardo.
__________________
GFG
Last edited by dino7c; 08-24-2021 at 08:23 PM.
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08-24-2021, 08:43 PM
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#103
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dino7c
So you take those wins away because? His record is his record...if you are gonna start taking away a winning streak take away a losing streak too that may have been the goalies fault ect.
Sutter is better but Ward wasn't the worst coach, at some point these players need to step up. Basically the last chance...if it fails are we gonna say that Sutter has lost it and bail out the players again? If Sutter can't get these guys going its pretty tough to blame Wardo.
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So we aren't allowed to analyze the validity of that record?
He got nothing out of the talent he had. They played listless, slow, soft, and without cohesion.
Otherwise I thought he did okay.
Oh, and how about that call to put in a cold Rittich against Dallas in the playoffs?
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08-24-2021, 10:00 PM
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#104
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ComixZone
…Ward was awful as a head coach, and an absolutely moronic hire.
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The trouble is, Ward wasn't hired to be a head coach. He was hired as an assistant, and it turned out that the guy he was assisting was one of the biggest arseholes in hockey.
Giving him the permanent title at the end of the season was a puzzle. But if, as I have occasionally heard, Sutter was not available at that time, it made sense to keep Ward as a stopgap.
One thing I did notice: The extremely condensed schedule, with crazy travel and a woeful shortage of practice days, made monkeys out of a number of other coaches. I'm not putting too much stock in any conclusions drawn from that whole garbage season.
__________________
WARNING: The preceding message may not have been processed in a sarcasm-free facility.
Last edited by Jay Random; 08-24-2021 at 10:03 PM.
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08-24-2021, 10:24 PM
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#105
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo
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Can this model possibly be legit?Trying to isolate coaching as a variable seems far fetched to me.
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08-24-2021, 11:18 PM
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#106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strange Brew
Can this model possibly be legit?Trying to isolate coaching as a variable seems far fetched to me.
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I have to say, I’m a bit intrigued
It is simple xGF vs GF, and the coach is the label
We recall coaches where they satisfied shot based metrics but didn’t feel dangerous, yes? What’s more dangerous than actual goals? One value of the shot based metrics is correlating countable things to expect goals. Which doesn’t really matter as games are won with real goals
It’d be neat to see how these stats follow coaches across years and teams
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08-24-2021, 11:44 PM
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#107
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch Root
So we aren't allowed to analyze the validity of that record?
He got nothing out of the talent he had. They played listless, slow, soft, and without cohesion.
Otherwise I thought he did okay.
Oh, and how about that call to put in a cold Rittich against Dallas in the playoffs?
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Analyze whatever you want but it seems kinda biased to just throw out a win streak because it doesn't fit your argument. Every coach has wins because of a goalie, hot PP, whatever. Losses too.
I never said he was a good coach...not the worst ever either IMO. It seems many of the same posters who think the rosters terrible also think Ward is terrible because he was only 10 games above .500
Wards playoff run sadly enough was one of the Flames better ones in recent memory. Say what you will about the play in round but they still won it and pushed Dallas. In the infamous Rittich game you speak off the Flames allowed 7 scoring chances and got scored on 7 times.
That is on the goalies
Talbot had a .733
Rittich had a .667
What the heck is a coach supposed to do. By the way I am thrilled with Sutter, like I said the team must be good if even Ward can get them to win games...we shall see
__________________
GFG
Last edited by dino7c; 08-24-2021 at 11:49 PM.
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08-25-2021, 12:00 AM
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#108
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Powerplay Quarterback
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: The real "Cowtown"
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It's interesting where Vigneault is on this chart. I remember when many on this site were pining for his coaching ability. I wonder how much this chart accurately show true coaching ability and how much a bad team skews good coaching. Ward is exactly where he belongs though and I wouldn't be surprised to see Gulutzan right along side him if he was on a coaching chart.
It's very excited to have Sutter as head coach of the Flames for a full year and I'm confidant that the Flames will make the playoffs and could be a nasty team to face.
Last edited by CF84; 08-25-2021 at 12:03 AM.
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08-25-2021, 06:30 AM
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#109
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Springbank
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Ward was in a tough spot. As interim he took over mid-season in a very unexpected change. And yeah, I’m a pandemic when options were limited (and it appears Sutter was not one of them) he got the nod with a less than standard 2 year contract - as lame duck as a coaching deal gets. He got almost no camp and was still very much working off of what Peters was going IMO. I don’t think he’s great but he’s also not the worst coach in Flames history.
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08-25-2021, 02:44 PM
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#110
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Calgary, AB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo
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It's crazy how bad Ward was last season.
I'm not 100% what really happened but the low risk style he wanted to play just didn't seem to work with this roster.
By far the worst coaching impact in the league last year by this metric.
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08-25-2021, 03:20 PM
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#111
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#1 Goaltender
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Calgary
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^^Maurice being smack dab in the middle seems to be totally on-brand as well.
__________________
From HFBoard oiler fan, in analyzing MacT's management:
O.K. there has been a lot of talk on whether or not MacTavish has actually done a good job for us, most fans on this board are very basic in their analysis and I feel would change their opinion entirely if the team was successful.
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08-25-2021, 11:00 PM
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#113
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Franchise Player
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Look at Monahan’s defensive numbers. At his position, it’s a big reason why the top line could not get out of their own zone so often.
He gets credit for improving his defensive play but it only had one direction to go. I have always had a big concern about his attention to detail in his own zone.
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08-25-2021, 11:57 PM
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#114
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^ I was surprised his ES d numbers were so atrocious the previous 2 seasons
Last edited by DeluxeMoustache; 08-26-2021 at 12:04 AM.
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08-26-2021, 08:15 AM
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#115
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Owner
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary
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hard to dig into Monahan numbers because of his injury last year.
but thought I'd look at his pre-Sutter / Sutter splits. No real change.
If you look at his last 15 games though (picked it arbitrarily as close to half the time under Sutter) he did show some improvement. About 2-3% in most splits from April 2nd to May 9th.
His hip injury is a wild card for his play, but it does look like Sutter was maybe digging him out in his own zone to some degree.
xGA60
Without Sutter 2.06
First half with Sutter 1.85
2nd half with Sutter 1.68
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08-26-2021, 09:14 AM
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#116
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First Line Centre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo
hard to dig into Monahan numbers because of his injury last year.
but thought I'd look at his pre-Sutter / Sutter splits. No real change.
If you look at his last 15 games though (picked it arbitrarily as close to half the time under Sutter) he did show some improvement. About 2-3% in most splits from April 2nd to May 9th.
His hip injury is a wild card for his play, but it does look like Sutter was maybe digging him out in his own zone to some degree.
xGA60
Without Sutter 2.06
First half with Sutter 1.85
2nd half with Sutter 1.68
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Gosh, a solid 2-way game from Monahan would do friggin wonders for this team..even if his overall offensive production dropped as a result, if Sutter could improve his defensive game our zone exits/offensive attack would vastly improve. I'm not worried about Mony suddenly losing his scoring touch.
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08-26-2021, 09:17 AM
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#117
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Owner
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanley
Gosh, a solid 2-way game from Monahan would do friggin wonders for this team..even if his overall offensive production dropped as a result, if Sutter could improve his defensive game our zone exits/offensive attack would vastly improve. I'm not worried about Mony suddenly losing his scoring touch.
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I'm not as hard on Monahan as others.
I think he's legitimately battled some pretty tough injuries over the past two years. Everything you hear out of him (boring or not) suggests he's a good guy that works hard.
I don't think he's a "killer!" which is tough to teach, but I do think if healthy he could improve a lot under Sutter and improve his trade value.
Still holding out hope that they have an offer on the table to move him for decent value if they acquire Eichel though!
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08-26-2021, 10:06 AM
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#118
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Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Calgary, Alberta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo
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This is why I think we are going to finish first next season.
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08-26-2021, 11:50 AM
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#119
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan
This is why I think we are going to finish first next season.
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Good News: Sutter's teams In LA were spectacular fancy stats, the top 1 or 2 in the league for his SC, won 2 rounds, SC 3 year run
Bad News: Sutter's teams In LA were spectacular fancy stats the top 1 or 2 in the league for his Miss the playoffs, out in round one, miss the playoffs and get fired 3 year run
Things to think about :
In 2017-18 where the Flames finished 17th in the league they were #5 in SAT% and #5 in USAT% (the base shot counting that drives all fancy stats that NHL.com reports on)
In 2018-19 where the Flames were tied for 2nd in the league they were 5/6 in the fancy stats
In 2019-20 where Flames were tied for 18th in the league they were 15/18 in fancy stats
In 2020-21 where the Flames were tied for 20th in the league the Flames were 7/8 in the fancy stats.
Hard to find a correlation between fancy stats and winning hockey games in both Sutter's personal record and the recent Flames history.
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08-31-2021, 10:30 AM
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#120
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Franchise Player
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i find it hilarious that we consider simple ratios 'fancy stats'
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