Let's talk about Cryptocurrencies

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by jammies

I've already made my arguments why private crypto "currency" is destined to fail due to not being fit to purpose as currency, and I don't care to repeat myself ad infinitum to convince those who are incapable of being convinced. So we will see what happens long-term and leave it at that, I'll be childishly gloating if I am correct and I'm sure there'll be childish gloating the other way if I'm not.

So what's your timeframe on it failing? Bitcoin has been around for 10 years now, in another 10 years are you still going to be on the "crypto will fail eventually" train when it's price hits 7 digits?

[jammies]

It's not possible to predict when an irrational craze will end. I suspect fatigue will sent in when the multitude of coins being constantly launched/promoted becomes obviously about profiting the founders of such coins to an extent that even the uneducated see what is happening, which, coupled with nation-states launching their own digital-only currencies will have a severely negative effect on the more established coins, and the bubbles will pop.

Other than that, back in early 2018 this thread had people telling us the Age of Crypto was about to commence, and it's almost 2022 and you still can't buy a pizza with bitcoin. I expect that Age will occur about the same time as Linux takes over the PC desktop.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by jammies

It's not possible to predict when an irrational craze will end. I suspect fatigue will sent in when the multitude of coins being constantly launched/promoted becomes obviously about profiting the founders of such coins to an extent that even the uneducated see what is happening, which, coupled with nation-states launching their own digital-only currencies will have a severely negative effect on the more established coins, and the bubbles will pop.

Other than that, back in early 2018 this thread had people telling us the Age of Crypto was about to commence, and it's almost 2022 and you still can't buy a pizza with bitcoin. I expect that Age will occur about the same time as Linux takes over the PC desktop.

I'm "in the fold" so to speak, but I am almost in full agreement with this. The technologies related to crypto and some of the projects are cool, but as an actual "currency" it's a huge fat failure.

What kind of moronic currency has value that fluctuates hundreds of percentage points in a week? Stablecoins (and conversely, national digital currencies) would have merit, but how is crypto supposed to be taken seriously if it has constant valuation flux based on Elon Musk tweets, whales dumping massive wallets, and Discord rumors?

Coinbase (and others) has a credit card where you can spend your crypto at a standard credit till, so effectively, yes you can buy a pizza, but it achieves this by converting the coin to fiat before purchase.

"Oh but I can buy "x" online with crypto!" you say, but can you really? The cost of those items is always in flux with the token value, while the actual cost is always pegged to fiat in the end anyway.

How exactly is crypto supposed to replace fiat if it's constantly being valued against it?

[Azure]

All these companies are rapidly moving towards allowing crypto transaction on their payment networks. This will allow crypto transactions to be made without needing to compare it to fiat.

Visa
Mastercard
Paypal
Cash App

After that Coinbase & Crypto.com are the two most downloaded apps right now allowing people to hold & invest in cryptocurrency.

Bitcoin ETFs are becoming more mainstream, allowing people to invest in Bitcoin to hedge against the deflationary action of the USD as an example.

There are many other examples that could be provided where digital currency is being adopted, not including NTFs, smart contracts, blockchain security, payment processing, etc, etc.

There are also a lot of other digital currencies that I haven't even looked at, all of which are setting the stage on a variety of different fronts when it comes to finance. DeFi as an example is going to be massive.

So yes, to sit there and say that 'crypto is not going to be a thing' makes you look pretty stupid. We don't even have to wait 10 years to come back and take another look. You look stupid now. Congratulations.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

So what's your timeframe on it failing? Bitcoin has been around for 10 years now, in another 10 years are you still going to be on the "crypto will fail eventually" train when it's price hits 7 digits?

Bitcoin will be around forever like cockroaches. You can’t kill it. Doesn’t mean it’ll ever be useful. Its use is already usurped by way more efficient tech. The only thing keeping BTC propped is that it was first to market, and boosters like dino who have no choice but to be because they’re already in deep.

[Azure]

That is a valid point, but what about gold? Who decided that it should be worth anything?

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Azure

All these companies are rapidly moving towards allowing crypto transaction on their payment networks. This will allow crypto transactions to be made without needing to compare it to fiat.

Visa
Mastercard
Paypal
Cash App

After that Coinbase & Crypto.com are the two most downloaded apps right now allowing people to hold & invest in cryptocurrency.

Bitcoin ETFs are becoming more mainstream, allowing people to invest in Bitcoin to hedge against the deflationary action of the USD as an example.

There are many other examples that could be provided where digital currency is being adopted, not including NTFs, smart contracts, blockchain security, payment processing, etc, etc.

There are also a lot of other digital currencies that I haven't even looked at, all of which are setting the stage on a variety of different fronts when it comes to finance. DeFi as an example is going to be massive.

So yes, to sit there and say that 'crypto is not going to be a thing' makes you look pretty stupid. We don't even have to wait 10 years to come back and take another look. You look stupid now. Congratulations.

Blockchain, decentralized finance, smart contracts, in game tokens, reward for network operators, various loan and project backing products are the thing, but that’s not what makes a functional currency. They all just have a currency angle to allow for conversion in and out of fiat at some point. 99.9999% of cryptocurrency won’t ever become a mainstream use for payments, purchases, local transactions, or pay from employment. ONE will, eventually, but it will just be an option alongside regular fiat.

All ties to Visa/MasterCard/etc still perform a live conversion to fiat behind the scene. They pay merchants in $ and you pay your monthly statement in $. So what if you bought a pair of pants at the bay for 0.001953846153846BTC. I bet you’re checking how that compares to the CAD price + GST to see how much more you actually paid.

[Krovikan]

Originally Posted by Azure

All these companies are rapidly moving towards allowing crypto transaction on their payment networks. This will allow crypto transactions to be made without needing to compare it to fiat.

Visa
Mastercard
Paypal
Cash App

After that Coinbase & Crypto.com are the two most downloaded apps right now allowing people to hold & invest in cryptocurrency.

Bitcoin ETFs are becoming more mainstream, allowing people to invest in Bitcoin to hedge against the deflationary action of the USD as an example.

There are many other examples that could be provided where digital currency is being adopted, not including NTFs, smart contracts, blockchain security, payment processing, etc, etc.

There are also a lot of other digital currencies that I haven't even looked at, all of which are setting the stage on a variety of different fronts when it comes to finance. DeFi as an example is going to be massive.

So yes, to sit there and say that 'crypto is not going to be a thing' makes you look pretty stupid. We don't even have to wait 10 years to come back and take another look. You look stupid now. Congratulations.

I think the talk that people will look back (or now) like they were stupid is a bit short-sided. I have been a proponent of cryptocurrency for a long time. I also have a target of 15% of my net worth tied into cryptocurrency, so I really do think it's a great investment.

But, let look at people who aren't in the know, you see so much BS and scams, NFTs are a great example of how great technology is being misused to scam people, for "digital copies" of images with no copyright? It's a cryptocurrency pump and dump game and some people have a hard time separating the scams from the legit coins.

Ya, we have legit coins and projects, but even within the legit stuff some of those project teams are soo bad STORJ was one that I was involved in. There project team is a mess. And let's be honest for every legit coin or token, there are thousands of poorly run projects or outright scams.

Heck one caution from my past TENX, seemed legit, had a deal with Mastercard, then they lose that deal, converted to MIMO and I've never been able to convert my TENX tokens to MIMO tokens.

Another project that I went in on that was a legit mining pool that wanted to expand into having an exchange, FINOM, which just up and disappeared.

Then you look at the talk and outright abuse people dish out (even on this forum) it's easy to see why people (even now) have skepticism of everything labelled cryptocurrency.

[afc wimbledon]

It would help if we stopped calling any of this a currency, none of it is a currency, it is all an investment, all of the conversation here and everywhere else is about how much money you can make or lose investing in crypto, that's not a currency, that's an investment

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Azure

So yes, to sit there and say that 'crypto is not going to be a thing' makes you look pretty stupid. We don't even have to wait 10 years to come back and take another look. You look stupid now. Congratulations.

Yes, your reasoned, nuanced argument "crypto is SO a THING!" argument has confounded me, and I feel I must now retreat in shame, or perhaps confusion since I can't find the quote you're referencing in anything I've said.

Converting to crypto behind the scenes is not paying for goods with crypto, it is using the system crypto is supposedly replacing to fill in a gap crypto itself has been unable to cross. It's like claiming your automobile replaces horse transportation and then having to hook up a horse to pull it along.

This is not a win for crypto tech, it is a confirmation that it doesn't work as currency, so the point you think you are making is not the point you actually are. Visa et al making the conversion of crypto to fiat seamless bypasses all the supposed "advantages" of crypto for those that use this service, doesn't it? Will Ambrose J Azure be able to anonymously use his bitcoin to buy a disgusting, evil pineapple pizza without the government knowing and marking him down for the re-education camps? Does blockchain security matter if it records nothing more than a mirror of Visa's server records?

And, most importantly, will all your paper gains in crypto be skimmed off of by service fees, should you be stunned enough to use these services, or will the altruistic heroes of the credit card companies be satisfied with selflessly advancing humanity along the path of Freedom? I'm sure another source of friction for a middleman to extract his percentage without adding value is one of the founding principles of the crypto movement, so yay! It's a definite win!

[Azure]

All you're doing is proving you understand little about crypto, have made no effort to understand crypto, and want to make no effort to understand crypto.

Why are you even here? Everytime you say something about crypto you look more stupid.

But hey, run and hide behind the rather ridiculous argument that crypto must equal currency in order to be practical when in fact nobody has ever said that, ever.

[jammies]

I'm here because I am amused by true believers.

I understand the tech behind crypto quite well, thanks, I just don't think the "problems" it "solves" are the right problems nor is it the right solution. The way you treat it is more as an ideology than a technology, which I've noticed is a trend with your opinions on any subject, and colours your perception of other people's opinions, which are rarely (if ever) correctly restated when you try to sum them up. For example, look at your summation of my words right here - where do I say crypto must equal currency? I DON'T. I say crypto doesn't work as currency, which is not the same thing at all.

Try arguing why it does work as currency, rather than just misstating my arguments and railing against imaginary straw men you feel fit to conquer. And maybe have a beer or something first, you seem overly emotionally invested in defending an inanimate technology against nefarious besmirching.

[Azure]

I never said it worked like a currency. Try to keep up. I said that the people who claim bitcoin is a scam and crypto sucks are going to look stupid in 10 years.

I was wrong about that though. They actually look stupid now. Nevermind 10 years.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Azure

There are many other examples that could be provided where digital currency is being adopted, not including NTFs, smart contracts, blockchain security, payment processing, etc, etc.

There are also a lot of other digital currencies that I haven't even looked at, all of which are setting the stage on a variety of different fronts when it comes to finance. DeFi as an example is going to be massive.

This is you, right? Talking about all the ways "digital" currencies (which are cryptocurrencies from your talk of blockchains and smart contracts and so on) are being adopted like currencies?

BTW. this is how you quote someone's words. You should look into it, it's a crazy feature.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Azure

All you're doing is proving you understand little about crypto, have made no effort to understand crypto, and want to make no effort to understand crypto.

Why are you even here? Everytime you say something about crypto you look more stupid.

But hey, run and hide behind the rather ridiculous argument that crypto must equal currency in order to be practical when in fact nobody has ever said that, ever.

The problem is though the crypto community, yourself included at times, conveniently switches the argument to 'crypto in general has all kinds of uses' when the question is 'what use is bitcoin or ethereum (sic) specifically?' I will admit the fact that bitcoin has become a bit of a generic term for all crypto currency's doesnt help these discussions though.

I get that you can make money investing in anything that the world has decided will go up and up forever and I dont doubt Dino has done well out of his investments but for a specific crypto currency to have value it has to have a purpose, if it doesnt it is a house built on sand, talking of houses my house in Vancouver is massively over valued but it is still a house in the only warmish part of Canada, it will lose value I have no doubt but I can still see it will always have an investment value because of that purpose, I cant see that in any of the specific crypto coins, none of them seem to have a purpose and if they dont they are essentially valueless other than the believers belief, thats a decent basis for a religeon but a crap investment

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Azure

I never said it worked like a currency. Try to keep up. I said that the people who claim bitcoin is a scam and crypto sucks are going to look stupid in 10 years.

I was wrong about that though. They actually look stupid now. Nevermind 10 years.

Can you quote the claims that Bitcoin is a scam and crypto “sucks” so we can keep up.

[indes]

Most publications have moved to calling them digital assets, or tokens. It's pretty obvious every country will have its own CBDC eventually and that money will move through the blockchain. XRP and XLM among others are tackling our completely outdated money moving systems.
Anyone who thinks fiat is going to beat out crypto is going to be sorely mistaken.

There are others like Propy who want to tokenizer real estate, Vechain who is attempting to shore up supply chain management.

We just saw a huge jump in meta coins due to Facebook and the future of augmented reality and the metaverse

The market is fueled almost entirely by speculation right now, but there are good projects out there and they will redefine the way we do things.

EDIT : Just wanted to add that aside from being the first coin, Bitcoin is completely useless and is a net negative for society.
ETH is right there with it, with its lagging transaction times and high gas fees. Hopefully speculation wanes out and the industry can be driven by utility and innovation.

[Krovikan]

Originally Posted by indes

Anyone who thinks fiat is going to beat out crypto is going to be sorely mistaken.

I'm not sure it's a competition that is needed, the Canadian Central Bank has been looking at converting Canadian money to digital assets for a very long time, even longer than Bitcoin. They have a program to study the integration of a crypto asset, which is interchangeable with the Canadian Dollar. I actually think we will see a hybrid model of currency come out sooner or later where a digital asset is interchangeable with the currency in a 1-1 fashion. Though what I'm not confident in is blockchain winning out for the digital asset, for decentralized digital assets, it is a good system and the pros out weight the cons, for centralized digital assets it is terribly inefficient, and many of the pros just aren't needed.

We also don't need crypto assets to beat currencies, they can live together.

There are others like Propy who want to tokenizer real estate, Vechain who is attempting to shore up supply chain management.

NFTs for tracking ownership assets, and a network that supported ledgers for supply chain management are two excellent examples of what cryptocurrency could do.

ETH is right there with it, with its lagging transaction times and high gas fees

The development team just can't get out of their way

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by indes

Anyone who thinks fiat is going to beat out crypto is going to be sorely mistaken.

anyone who thinks a modern economy can survive without Government control, Government borrowing, printing of money, control(ish) of interests rates etc hasnt thought through what life looks like without an economic safety net, it aint pretty, maybe there is a way crypto can print itself out of a Covid lockdown, provide Canada with the trillions in extra cash it takes to deal with these emergencies but if there is I cant see it

[indes]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

anyone who thinks a modern economy can survive without Government control, Government borrowing, printing of money, control(ish) of interests rates etc hasnt thought through what life looks like without an economic safety net, it aint pretty, maybe there is a way crypto can print itself out of a Covid lockdown, provide Canada with the trillions in extra cash it takes to deal with these emergencies but if there is I cant see it

I agree entirely! That's why CBDCs will be so big. It's also why I bring up XRP (ripple) as they have the framework in place to allow countries and businesses to seamlessly exchange money.

No more pre funding foreign accounts or waiting 3-5 business days to get money. No more 20$ wire transfers, or 3000$ e-transfer limit. Crypto and blockchain technology will be integrated into everything eventually. It's literally the next internet.