Job Seekers thread Mark 2

[CaptainCrunch]

I have a friend, in his mid 50's. And yeah, he's running into it in a huge way. The interviewers are pretty clever about rejection. But he wants to do an interview with a "camera failure" on zoom. Just to see.

[CaptainCrunch]

I'm interviewing candidates for a really short term, almost help desk support role in Ontario. Not super high pay, high volume calls.



The people that are applying for it almost break my heart. These are really good people that had high end roles in different industries that had Covid take them out, and its so competitive out there that they're getting desperate just to work or even just interviews..



The people who are for example were in travel and in food or restaurant are all completely side lined. The good thing I guess is this is a shorter term contract role, so I don't have to worry as much about people leaving for other roles because their industries just aren't going to bounce back that quickly.

[Hack&Lube]

My other problem for hiring right now is unavailability for anybody to train them. We are on a rotation for in the office/job site and it's difficult for one person to train a new hire when they are the only one there and have other responsibilities to take care of. I'm almost postponing hiring until the spring/summer.

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

My other problem for hiring right now is unavailability for anybody to train them. We are on a rotation for in the office/job site and it's difficult for one person to train a new hire when they are the only one there and have other responsibilities to take care of. I'm almost postponing hiring until the spring/summer.

In my opinion this is going to be a huge downside of WFH. I'm not sure how new hires / graduates etc. are going to be trained if there is nobody in the office to train them.

Additionally there is (for me) the problem of how to train people when you are so busy you cannot keep up with your current workload. We're into a seasonal slowdown now but are in the position now of having laid off so many people that if it picks up suddenly (as it did over the winter) there is no way I could hire someone and train them and also get the day to day work done. I guess it's the typical Catch 22, management won't hire until we are at the breaking point and then we would be too busy to onboard someone and spend 3-6 months training them.

[FurnaceFace]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/pande...-do-riva-gold/

I had this come up in an interview yesterday. HR recruiter asked what I had been doing while on break. I had taken a few courses and could relay that to her which I think got me a checkbox.

As an aside it was a frustrating phone interview in general. Every time I paused between sentences while answering a question she seemed to take that as an opening to ask another question. It meant a lot of talking over each other and meant that I’d just rattle off my example in a single breath without taking natural pauses. She also seemed to not be listening really well as we had a few exchanges where I really wanted to stop and say “stop talking and LISTEN!” Perhaps it was a phone delay but I never felt like I had the same challenge. I am getting passed on to the hiring manager for review and possible second interview which given how the interview seemed to go is an achievement.

[RichieRich]

Originally Posted by Lubicon

In my opinion this is going to be a huge downside of WFH. I'm not sure how new hires / graduates etc. are going to be trained if there is nobody in the office to train them.

Additionally there is (for me) the problem of how to train people when you are so busy you cannot keep up with your current workload. We're into a seasonal slowdown now but are in the position now of having laid off so many people that if it picks up suddenly (as it did over the winter) there is no way I could hire someone and train them and also get the day to day work done. I guess it's the typical Catch 22, management won't hire until we are at the breaking point and then we would be too busy to onboard someone and spend 3-6 months training them.

I did an exit interview for a junior engineer today... one of the things identified as an opportunity for improvement was... onboarding during WFH/Covid; better oversight and mentorship. go figure.

[CaptainCrunch]

I had to laugh, well not laugh. I had a friend, he's been unemployed since June. He applied for a safety managers job, that he has all the qualifications and experiences for. He did the first interview with the recruiter. They sent him a test, that he had 35 minutes to complete.

The first section was a 135 question psychometric test. The second part was a 30 question math test. The third was a 30 question logic test.

I mean I get what recruiters and hiring agents are trying to do. Its filtration through test scores, its theoretical algorithmic processes. But, I go back to the fact that a lot of organizations have completely silly and out of control hiring processes. They've gone from interviewing candidates to math.

He was so incredibly frustrated when he talked to me, as a lot of you know, even getting interviews is incredibly hard because of the number of people not working, but I have a feeling that these companies are going to lose out on good candidates and hire a lot of counterfeit candidates who know how to game the tests and hiring processes.

I didn't even know what to tell my friend, he was talking like "whats the point of all of this and even applying". He's facing the double pressure, family pressures because he's not working, and his benefits will end I think in June. I helped him with his resume, which got him more interest and the interview, I helped hm with a mock interview, he did well enough in the interview to get to a obnoxious test that's a gate keeper for the recruiter.

What the hell does a math and logic test have to do with putting together and managing a safety program? How does that tell a manager in any way if this person has the skills, knowledge and behavior to do that job. Not everything breaks down to a score that you can punch into a spreadsheet.

Sorry for the rant.

[stazzy33]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I had to laugh, well not laugh. I had a friend, he's been unemployed since June. He applied for a safety managers job, that he has all the qualifications and experiences for. He did the first interview with the recruiter. They sent him a test, that he had 35 minutes to complete.

The first section was a 135 question psychometric test. The second part was a 30 question math test. The third was a 30 question logic test.

I mean I get what recruiters and hiring agents are trying to do. Its filtration through test scores, its theoretical algorithmic processes. But, I go back to the fact that a lot of organizations have completely silly and out of control hiring processes. They've gone from interviewing candidates to math.

He was so incredibly frustrated when he talked to me, as a lot of you know, even getting interviews is incredibly hard because of the number of people not working, but I have a feeling that these companies are going to lose out on good candidates and hire a lot of counterfeit candidates who know how to game the tests and hiring processes.

I didn't even know what to tell my friend, he was talking like "whats the point of all of this and even applying". He's facing the double pressure, family pressures because he's not working, and his benefits will end I think in June. I helped him with his resume, which got him more interest and the interview, I helped hm with a mock interview, he did well enough in the interview to get to a obnoxious test that's a gate keeper for the recruiter.

What the hell does a math and logic test have to do with putting together and managing a safety program? How does that tell a manager in any way if this person has the skills, knowledge and behavior to do that job. Not everything breaks down to a score that you can punch into a spreadsheet.

Sorry for the rant.

35 minutes for a 195 question test? They expect him to answer ~5.5 questions per minute?? Are they specifically looking to hire rain man?

Also, can you ask him for a copy of the test? I would love to try and see if I could even get close to completing it.

[CaptainCrunch]

Sorry the test was online. It asked him the same thing. I mean the psychometric test is easy. But math and logic is crazy

[Regulator75]

Finally landed a job, been off since Aug 31st 2020.

Feels great!

[CaptainCrunch]

woohoo congrats

[hixxes]

Had my first formal interview in over a year yesterday. It went mostly well although it was my first online interview experience which brought with it some technical glitches (my camera kept freezing) and I found the lag awkward whenever I finished speaking. The first time it happened it caught me off guard and I sort of stammered.

I'm also kicking myself for scrambling my way through a tough technical question and of course the dreaded compensation question. I wasn't surprised by the questions but with being nervous my answers weren't as succinct and confident as I would have liked.

Anyhow, overall I think it went well. Fingers crossed!

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by hixxes

Had my first formal interview in over a year yesterday. It went mostly well although it was my first online interview experience which brought with it some technical glitches (my camera kept freezing) and I found the lag awkward whenever I finished speaking. The first time it happened it caught me off guard and I sort of stammered.

I'm also kicking myself for scrambling my way through a tough technical question and of course the dreaded compensation question. I wasn't surprised by the questions but with being nervous my answers weren't as succinct and confident as I would have liked.

Anyhow, overall I think it went well. Fingers crossed!

hoping for you. Interviews are like tests. You always come out thinking you did about 23% worse then you actually did. Now take a deep breath and let us know when you hear back.

[CaptainCrunch]

So I've been working about 6 days a week since November because I've been doing various recruiting projects both private and governmental as well as my other startup related role.


I've been doing a lot of QA interview, spot checks of quality of candidates etc.


I wanted to provide some things that I've stumbled upon


1) Absolutely do put in the effort to write a cover letter. Link your experiences to the role that you're interested in, don't make the recruiter or HR person have to do all of the math, especially when they're reviewing hundreds of applicants.


2) Link you're resume to the job, if you have a role that directly relates make sure its in there not matter what the timing is (x years ago). Especially if your more recent experience has nothing to do with the job that you're applying for. Again make it easy for the reviewer to understand why you're right for the role.


3) Find a way to make your resume stand out or pop. Whether its formating, or whether its how you list your experience. I can honestly say after reviewing several hundred resume's a week for one of the roles, that if I see one more black and white basic resume with tiny fonts that make my eyes die, I'm going to scream. Human's are crows, so a nicely presented resume with pop factor instinctly stands out.


4) If you get a interview, especially by phone. Make sure you know the name of the person that's interviewing you. Do not get it wrong repeatedly, do not call a recruiter dude.

5) Show care, do some research if the name of the organization is available, google it. If its not make sure you have a clear understanding of the job description, don't ask questions where the facts have already been presented.
6) Show some energy, also make sure that you're not on speaker phone where your kids are screaming in the background or your holding simultaneous conversations. Don't talk like you just rolled out of bed.
7) Have some questions it shows engagement and interest and enthusiasm
8) Man, don't start negotiating when that door hasn't been opened for you, especially in the first interview, its a getting to know you, and a fast look by the recruiter in two key areas. Can you present your case, are there any red flags.


I think that's all for now, but more might be coming.

[RichieRich]

Me: gets phone call today from recruiter... sweet.
R: I have a posting I think you're a good fit for. Interested?
M: yep, sure. What are they looking for?
R: it's on the post and for a utility company.
M: OK I'm interested. Is that for an engineering role?
R: I'm not sure. I don't know. But can you tell me now?
M: well... is it for a mechanical...civil... electrical... process...?
R: ...
M: how about you send me the posting.
R: ok.


So I get the post... and it's a long one... and the only hint, out of a 2-pager, that they want an specific discipline is the word "feeder". How TF can a well established company with HR team write so much without actually saying what core competencies are required?

sigh...
anyways just a little gear grinder that some organizations can't seem to help themselves.

[RichieRich]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

So I've been working about 6 days a week since November because I've been doing various recruiting projects both private and governmental as well as my other startup related role.
I've been doing a lot of QA interview, spot checks of quality of candidates etc.
I wanted to provide some things that I've stumbled upon
1) Absolutely do put in the effort to write a cover letter. Link your experiences to the role that you're interested in, don't make the recruiter or HR person have to do all of the math, especially when they're reviewing hundreds of applicants.
2) Link you're resume to the job, if you have a role that directly relates make sure its in there not matter what the timing is (x years ago). Especially if your more recent experience has nothing to do with the job that you're applying for. Again make it easy for the reviewer to understand why you're right for the role.
3) Find a way to make your resume stand out or pop. Whether its formating, or whether its how you list your experience. I can honestly say after reviewing several hundred resume's a week for one of the roles, that if I see one more black and white basic resume with tiny fonts that make my eyes die, I'm going to scream. Human's are crows, so a nicely presented resume with pop factor instinctly stands out.
4) If you get a interview, especially by phone. Make sure you know the name of the person that's interviewing you. Do not get it wrong repeatedly, do not call a recruiter dude.
5) Show care, do some research if the name of the organization is available, google it. If its not make sure you have a clear understanding of the job description, don't ask questions where the facts have already been presented.
6) Show some energy, also make sure that you're not on speaker phone where your kids are screaming in the background or your holding simultaneous conversations. Don't talk like you just rolled out of bed.
7) Have some questions it shows engagement and interest and enthusiasm
8) Man, don't start negotiating when that door hasn't been opened for you, especially in the first interview, its a getting to know you, and a fast look by the recruiter in two key areas. Can you present your case, are there any red flags.
I think that's all for now, but more might be coming.

Good words of advice for sure. I full agree, and have used these recently.
With so many video and/or telephone interviews there's really no excuse for not having MORE access and reminders of what to talk of. I have a few stickies on each side of my camera that I write down interviewer names/roles (if I know), key phrases on their posting and website, key skillsets, and questions.

[Maccalus]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

3) Find a way to make your resume stand out or pop. Whether its formating, or whether its how you list your experience. I can honestly say after reviewing several hundred resume's a week for one of the roles, that if I see one more black and white basic resume with tiny fonts that make my eyes die, I'm going to scream. Human's are crows, so a nicely presented resume with pop factor instinctly stands out.

The one piece of advice I got from an outplacement company and why you see so many samey looking black and white resumes is due to the increasing prevalence of automated resume scanning systems. When using fancy formatting, some of the less advanced programs will skip keywords and your resume won't even make it to a person. This is especially true of specific information in headers and footers apparently, as some programs skip them.

The advice that I was given is that if you are using more than basic formatting is to place some of the keywords at the top of the resume in size 1 white font, so a computer will pick it up and make it through the dumb programs while having it invisible to the actual hiring manager who makes the decisions.

I can't say for certain on the effectiveness of this, but just giving what was told to me.

[CaptainCrunch]

So I want to keep adding on to this, again I preface things with my thoughts and advice are only worth as much as you pay for it. I also try to state this when I do resume reviews with people from the board. I do it to be helpful. But I think its important to learn a little bit more about recruiters and their role and what in theory they should be doing.

First of all, lets be completely square here. A recruiter is realistically an account manager. In terms of priority, their first priority is to their company, the second to the client, the third to the candidates. They are not a talent agent for you. The sooner you realize that the better.

Recruiters have several realistic fears. 1) They're terrified of losing a client. 2) They're terrified of fall off, a candidate that gets a job and then falls off within the first 90 to lets say 120 days because of the guarantee. If that candidate falls off depending on how the contract is written, the recruiter is on the hook either to return the fee, or do a replacement for free. Do enough of those and you're really not working as a recruiter anymore. On average the fee is calculated based on a percentage of the new hires first year salary, and depending on the recruiting firm, the complexity and level of the job and a few other factors.

Its important to understand that, when you're talking with or establishing a relationship with your recruiter. Why? Because you're worth as a candidate is locked to that recruiter. Its reputational.

So with that in mind. Lets talk about how things work. When a recruiter gets a role to recruit for, they should be doing a few things. First of all digging into the requirements of the role. Some companies will hand the recruiter a job description, some will give some high points and tell the recruiter to create a job description. There's an important distinction. First of all a recruiter has to go by what the company desires, they are not HR specialists, they don't have intimate knowledge of the clients culture, or a true sense of the role beyond what they're being told. A good recruiter also pushes for a understanding of the time line, process to hire, decision matrix and most importantly tries to get access to the hiring authority. To be honest most of them don't get these things or do the minimum possible and hope for the best.

A good recruiter can then control the timeline, push the client along the process and gets direct feedback on the interviews from the person that makes the yes or no decision.

As a candidate, when you first talk to the recruiter, its hugely important that you establish how much control the recruiter has in the situation. You can try to find out

1) Is this an exclusive recruit with the recruiter?
2) What does the hiring process look like, what's the urgency. What's the timeline, what are the steps, how firm are they?
3) Are you dealing directly with the hiring authority?
4) Is this the finalized job description?
5) Is this your exclusive recruitment (Tricky to ask but worth it).

Why do you want to find this stuff out?

If they don't have the ear of the hiring authority, they can suddenly find out that the client isn't happy with the candidates and will ask for a reset, and rewrite of the job description, and after hours of interviews you could be eliminated

If they don't have the ear of the hiring authority, they can lose control of the time line and suddenly things will stretch out by days or weeks or there might be a stop and refocus.

So once you get past the first stage of the vetting process, the recruiter becomes your voice in the process. Don't hesitate in asking for answers, time lines, call to actions. If you don't you could find the process stretching on, or new actions like interviews or homework or testing happening that you weren't aware of before. Or you might get the shocking call that they've stopped hiring for the position. Or sorry they changed the job description so you don't fit anymore. Don't be afraid to be a little bit demanding. If they promise an answer on Thursday, don't hesitate to reach out on Thursday at an appropriate time.

Also and this is key, ask what else is available, ask if their colleagues are working on something that you may fit into. As a recruiter I was very protective of my bench strength. I didn't want to get halfway through my process and suddenly get a good candidate snatched away from me by a colleague. But I was always surprised when a candidate didn't ask.

Anyways hope this helps get you around the frustrations of the Recruiter roadblocks.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Maccalus

The one piece of advice I got from an outplacement company and why you see so many samey looking black and white resumes is due to the increasing prevalence of automated resume scanning systems. When using fancy formatting, some of the less advanced programs will skip keywords and your resume won't even make it to a person. This is especially true of specific information in headers and footers apparently, as some programs skip them.

The advice that I was given is that if you are using more than basic formatting is to place some of the keywords at the top of the resume in size 1 white font, so a computer will pick it up and make it through the dumb programs while having it invisible to the actual hiring manager who makes the decisions.

I can't say for certain on the effectiveness of this, but just giving what was told to me.

Good thought, I do it all the time with my resume, but I actually put my key words in a readable summary section.



Not every company is on a ATS at this point, so the stand out resumes will still appeal. Plus it gives a sense of creativity and strategic thinking in that yeah, you know you have to stand out man.

[Nufy]

How do you get past the automated requirements.

For example...I see a posting and I meet all the requirements except for a P. Eng designation.

My 20 years of experience in that role is nothing compared to a 5 year P. Eng even though I am more qualified.

When clicking through the listing website do you lie and say yes to the Eng Degree and P.Eng requirement in the hopes that your actual experience will be enough ?