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Old 03-10-2017, 10:19 AM   #21
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I'm gonna agree with Pylon here.

This article isn't saying that TD told them or approved of them adding services or jacking up the fees.

The employees are the ones cutting the corners here to reach their sales targets.

So to me that maybe means that TD needs a better checks and balances system.

Or better training of their employees.

But its not TD that's acting wrongly except that they're doing what every sales based organization does which is apply pressure to sell sell sell. Its the employees taking shortcuts.
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:19 AM   #22
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And there's plenty more comments along the same line of thinking. And they are right. This is more an indictment of the employees, than the employer.
It's absolutely both.

With any job, turn the screw too tight and you'll get an adverse reaction. When an employer doesn't understand what an attainable target is, you'll either get high turnover or employees bending rules to meet it.
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:19 AM   #23
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I figure it should should be prevalent in... 40 years... optimistically.



Not quite digital in that sense. De-centralized currency is actually less problematic. The problem with it right now is habit people have of "centralizing" it into certain spaces, which makes it possible for hackers to devalue the currency (but not to actually steal it).

It's a long way off from being something even 50% of the population uses, but it's the future, for sure. It's main benefit is the fact that fees for banking no-longer exist and, when done right (keep in mind, it's still in an infancy stage) it's about 1000x safer than having any of your money (mortgage, loan, paychecks, etc) be handled by a middle man.

It would also have a game-changing impact on the way taxes are collected and government spending occurs, allowing for complete and total transparency.

Anyways, it's the future, TD sucks, blah blah.
You are actually on your way with some of the features above to what is being called blockchain. I don't want to talk about that as it will derail the thread but some of your ideas are already taking shape...but guess who is front and centre on it? banks.

On your earlier post that no one will miss the banks, well I'm thinking that eventually you want to retire? RBC is the number one held stock in pension and mutual funds, and i'm guessing that the others aren't far behind. so there's that. Also, compared to some other industries and countries, the Canadian banking system is strong and safe.

The original topic though sounds like a bad TD sales campaign gone wrong; spiffs and multipliers will do that.
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:20 AM   #24
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I'm gonna agree with Pylon here.

This article isn't saying that TD told them or approved of them adding services or jacking up the fees.

The employees are the ones cutting the corners here to reach their sales targets.

So to me that maybe means that TD needs a better checks and balances system.

Or better training of their employees.

But its not TD that's acting wrongly except that they're doing what every sales based organization does which is apply pressure to sell sell sell. Its the employees taking shortcuts.
It might also mean that TD needs to set realistic targets, targets that aren't so high as to cause their employees to feel they need to take these steps to meet target and thereby keep their jobs.


There is probably blame on each side of this story.
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:21 AM   #25
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Those people aren't complaining that they have the right to a crappy job. They are complaining that the only way to keep the job is to cheat. The article isn't meant to be a heartfelt piece on these poor saps who hate their jobs. It is meant to showcase that the major canadian financial institutions are encouraging their employees to lie to customers and scam them.

The point is that it is institutionalized and well beyond the individuals.

The individual who is breaking the law is largely irrelevant here. They will just replace you with someone else who will break the rules because their targets are so unrealistic that the only way to meet them is to cheat.
Firstly bolded, perhaps they don't have the skillset to actually sell the products on their merits, and just want to take the path of least resistance and game the system, as opposed to earn the sale with information. I have seen this in my field, where guys would try and use every slimy trick in the book to sell a warranty or accident and health policy, where as a simple conversation and fact finding session would have netted you an equal result, and a sale. It just might take a little longer.

As to the second bolded part, it is relevant. It says a lot about society if there is an endless stream of people willing to break the law to earn an extra $500 a month.
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:21 AM   #26
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Not usually a fan of the comments sections of any news site, but at least some people can read between the lines.





And there's plenty more comments along the same line of thinking. And they are right. This is more an indictment of the employees, than the employer.
I don't know. It might be unethical employees, but the company itself is surely in the mix. I definitely wouldn't say this is a TD issue either as I know that every bank has been implicated anecdotally in my experience. "Advisors" at the branches making all kinds of claims about their products and other institutions which are completely false, or pure and simple tied selling as mentioned above which is completely illegal. It's basically systemic at this point.
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:22 AM   #27
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Firstly bolded, perhaps they don't have the skillset to actually sell the products on their merits, and just want to take the path of least resistance and game the system, as opposed to earn the sale with information.
Then that is on the management and training team at TD, if that is the case.
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:25 AM   #28
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It's absolutely both.

With any job, turn the screw too tight and you'll get an adverse reaction. When an employer doesn't understand what an attainable target is, you'll either get high turnover or employees bending rules to meet it.

And make no mistake, they implicitly support these tactics. It isn't hard to encourage employees to do dishonest things and still maintain deniability. You just need to know how to phrase it in such a way that the employees can read between the lines.

Not to mention the fact that when the people who do engage in dishonest sales tactics are constantly rewarded with bonuses and awards and are the ones regularly promoted, it tends to shift the culture towards other people who will do dishonest things.


Client comes in for a line of credit and they want $100k? Manager just has to say well why not give them $400k. Frame it as doing what's best for the customer. What if they lose their job or have an emergency? Just ramp up the fear and downplay any negatives. Only focus on the potential positives.

Then if the employee doesn't get the client to agree to the higher amount they are reprimanded. And when TD has actually removed the client from the equation entirely, you can see how they are implicitly encouraging their staff to just do whatever is best for themselves, not the client.
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:26 AM   #29
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It might also mean that TD needs to set realistic targets, targets that aren't so high as to cause their employees to feel they need to take these steps to meet target and thereby keep their jobs.


There is probably blame on each side of this story.
Ok, but I'm wonder how valid that is, we're hearing some employees talk about it, but what is the percentage of people that hit those targets without cheating.

Maybe where TD is failing is that they're hiring too high of a percentage of people that aren't the right fit for the job, in which case their hiring practices and onboarding needs to be looked at.

But that's not an ethical issue.

I know that at every organization I've been in that's sales intensive you would have people whining about the impossibility of their sales targets. But sales targets are supposed to stretch a person not be something that's easy to get to.

Are the people bad that are cheating and feeling the pressure bad employees? Well they are if they're cheating and doing unethical things. But they could also just be a bad fit for the environment and we don't know if they're a majority or minority.
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:28 AM   #30
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You are actually on your way with some of the features above to what is being called blockchain. I don't want to talk about that as it will derail the thread but some of your ideas are already taking shape...but guess who is front and centre on it? banks.

On your earlier post that no one will miss the banks, well I'm thinking that eventually you want to retire? RBC is the number one held stock in pension and mutual funds, and i'm guessing that the others aren't far behind. so there's that. Also, compared to some other industries and countries, the Canadian banking system is strong and safe.

The original topic though sounds like a bad TD sales campaign gone wrong; spiffs and multipliers will do that.
Yeah I was referring to blockchain.

It will require the financial industry to embrace it (which a big portion is starting to already for the sake of file management) but it will eliminate banks as we historically recognize them, specifically the third-party, human element.

It's big stuff. And good stuff, eventually.
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:28 AM   #31
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Doesn't sound like TD would stop employees from doing illegal things to get more sales. This must have been known among inner circles within the company, that people will do what it takes to keep their jobs and meet targets. Whatever works, right?
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:29 AM   #32
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Ok, but I'm wonder how valid that is, we're hearing some employees talk about it, but what is the percentage of people that hit those targets without cheating.

Maybe where TD is failing is that they're hiring too high of a percentage of people that aren't the right fit for the job, in which case their hiring practices and onboarding needs to be looked at.

But that's not an ethical issue.

I know that at every organization I've been in that's sales intensive you would have people whining about the impossibility of their sales targets. But sales targets are supposed to stretch a person not be something that's easy to get to.

Are the people bad that are cheating and feeling the pressure bad employees? Well they are if they're cheating and doing unethical things. But they could also just be a bad fit for the environment and we don't know if they're a majority or minority.
As I said a few posts above it could be a management/coaching/training issue.
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:30 AM   #33
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Firstly bolded, perhaps they don't have the skillset to actually sell the products on their merits, and just want to take the path of least resistance and game the system, as opposed to earn the sale with information. I have seen this in my field, where guys would try and use every slimy trick in the book to sell a warranty or accident and health policy, where as a simple conversation and fact finding session would have netted you an equal result, and a sale. It just might take a little longer.

As to the second bolded part, it is relevant. It says a lot about society if there is an endless stream of people willing to break the law to earn an extra $500 a month.
Oh I totally agree with your first part. Most people don't have the skillset. But at the end of the day, if the employer doesn't give a crap about the client, then neither will the employees.

I'm sure you've seen this in your line of work, pylon. A manager will jump through hoops to try and justify why a client should have taken the "extras", even if it is totally unnecessary and not in the client's best interests, the stuff that really makes them $$ because the margins on the core products are so low. The mental gymnastics that managers will go through to justify supporting totally unnecessary sales is hilarious. And they do it all to avoid looking slimy themselves and to avoid any culpability if the employee is caught doing it. When the employee succeeds, the manager gets credit for their sales acumen and training. When the employee fails, the manager fires them saying they aren't buying into the process and don't believe in what's best for the customer, when in reality it is the exact opposite.
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:33 AM   #34
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Oh come on, I'm not absolving the employees who did bad things, but wtf kind of management supports that garbage, or puts on that kind of pressure? It's coming from the top down and it is TD who needs to take responsibility for this culture.

From the comments, "tape your manager and get him fired?" That is ludicrous. I've had those kind of managers, they ask you to bend the rules all the time and they are great at not leaving a trail, I had one supervisor who never sent email, always pulled you aside to make requests, absolutely no evidence that he could be held too. They like to push you need to be strong and confident to stand your ground. But giving up your livelyhood is a gamble most people won't take and they know it.
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:35 AM   #35
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Then that is on the management and training team at TD, if that is the case.
Not necessarily the case.

We've worked with a trainer for years who is the absolute golden child of advanced finance service/product selling techniques. He charges 5k/day for an 8 hour session and is booked 6 months in advance. He's especially renowned for his adherence to ethics and compliance. I doubt the guy has told a lie in his life.

Yet people will go into his course, throw it all away, and go back to the shady stuff, because it takes less time. Even though it nets a worse result, the time invested in the customer vs. the return just isn't worth the effort.

So no, you can't train laziness out of a good fraction of people. Once you have the god mode cheat for a game you're stuck on, the second you activate it, you've pretty much resigned to the fact that you're not gonna turn it off.
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:43 AM   #36
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This is no different from any business that sells add on products to their main offering.

Go work in retail electronics. Its not selling a computer or stereo or dishwasher that gets you paid and promoted, its the extended warranty.

I mean, I'm old and its been a long time, but when I worked at FS, I was a top performer and moved up the chain not because I sold a ton of computers a year, but because I had a 5% closing rate for their CSP.

We were taught sales techniques and at times you had to make some pretty nebulous statements, and a manager had to approve a sale where the CSP was declined and the manager had to do a second approach.

Looking back on it, sure I learned some interesting sales techniques, but I didn't enjoy sellling it.

Frankly the only areas where the CSP broke even or lost dollars was on big screen projection style TV's and appliances, because frankly all of the other electronics were pretty bullet proof and usually didn't break or fail in three years.

But I could show you value charts etc etc and literally scare you into buying it.

If you look at how commissions worked. If I sold a $2000.00 computer with 10% margin, I would take a third of the profit margin or about 60 bucks.

But if I sold a $500.00 CSP plan on that computer, CSP was pure profit and I'd scoop a third or $150.00. So I would sell it. It would make the difference between making $100.00 a day and $200.00 back in the early 90's which was great money.

And of course the stores competed with each other on CSP. A store with <5% average CSP was an underperformer no matter how much product they sold and managers would dread going to the managers meeting.

I remember that I was good at selling the warranty and they started loaning me from store to store that were struggling, not even to necessarily teach them about it, and I didn't give a crap about helping someone else to learn how to sell it because I wanted a clearer path to promotion. I would go into their store for a month and try to crush everyone and help boost the stores percentage. Then I'd walk out at the end of the month with a smirk and a jerk like and that's how its done grasshopper with a bunch of bucks in my pocket and a hangover from nightly drinking.

Businesses have always been about selling the profitable add ons.

Want to make money on a computer, sell warranty (grease) make them buy some video games for their kids and get an upgrade on a graphics card. Make them buy a crappy printer and a bunch of replacement cartridges and a box of paper. A expensive mouse pad? Sure sure it protects your mouse and looks its the enterprise. Why don't we go take a look at those super expensive speakers.
I used to work for a car rental company.

It's on par with this, if not worse.
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:43 AM   #37
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The issue is that the banks have shareholders. Upper management always faces consequences on share price and backlash. TD coming off a record breaking year where it became the largest FI by assets in Canada, now has to try and replicate success. Report a down quarter or year and see share prices drop.

That is where it comes from, the trickle down effect that falls to middle management to "increase volume" then becomes unrealistic sales targets hitting the CSR and account managers.

What TD is doing here is wrong. Unfortunately, the banking industry in Canada is extremely competitive, uneven and leads to this type of practices. Easy to say leave a job in a downturn, but if it means a paycheque for your family or sleeping at night, the decision becomes more difficult for the small guy.
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Old 03-10-2017, 11:23 AM   #38
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Had a family member quit because of these exact reasons. The directive is not coming from the branch level managers but they are being pushed by corporate.
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Old 03-10-2017, 11:30 AM   #39
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Yeah I was referring to blockchain.

It will require the financial industry to embrace it (which a big portion is starting to already for the sake of file management) but it will eliminate banks as we historically recognize them, specifically the third-party, human element.

It's big stuff. And good stuff, eventually.
Financial Times hasn't really been keen on it for quite some time. It is way out of my league, but there seem to be some major security risks associated with blockchain.
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Old 03-10-2017, 11:34 AM   #40
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When my wife and I went to sign our mortgage papers a few years back (different bank than TD but equally scummy) we were signing stuff and then the guy goes:
"Ok and sign here for your line of credit."
'Our what?'
'You're pre approved line of credit?' slightly nervous look
'We didn't ask for that.'
'But its pre approved' desperation setting in
'I don't care, we don't want it.'
'But its preapproved!!!'

I imagine he gets nice bonuses for sliding those things in there. I actually asked to deal with someone else after that and haven't talked to the guy since. The next time we went in we brought our Mortgage broker (we had to go through the bank that was used to secure our builders mortgage, a detail that wasn't brought to our attention at the time) and she put them through the ringer. The girl also tried to sell us something we didn't need and our broker basically caught her in it then explained why we didn't need it.. I ALMOST felt back for the banker, almost, because she was squirming with absolutely no defense as to why she tried to include it.
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