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Old 07-20-2021, 05:28 PM   #401
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It's just one of many steps. Nobody thinks this is where it ends.

I mentioned it before, but I really do want more of a roadmap of what we're in for to make amends for this. I'm not into my eventual grandkids continuing an unending atonement process. I'd rather do it all now once we know what will make this right. If it's a forever-process of atonement without an end goal, my vote is we do absolutely nothing. Like if it won't work, let's not go to the expense and effort of it all.

First option is to right the wrong, though, but only if we'll get a, "thank you, it is time to move forward and leave the past behind us" at the end.
I do not think this is possible to have a one time thank you. More situations will crop up and it will go on and on. And who is the decider of what's a wrong and what isn't in the future. So I think we're doing nothing.

Let's take two simplistic comparisons. Indigenous in Canada and Blacks in the US. Both wronged groups in history.

Let's move up to 1960. Civil rights to America, blacks segregated, given more rights. Indigenous in Canada still in residential schools, still on their reserves.

So since 1960, how much have both groups advanced (if at all) and at what point is it past the point of guilt and apology? Blacks have advanced tremendously in 60 years but there's still work to be done, there's still systemic problems. I'm not sure Indigenous in Canada have advanced at all, which is really sad.

So if we have a civil rights movement in Canada, I'm not even sure what that means, and in 60 years, Indigenous in Canada get to around where blacks in American are now... as Sam Harris puts it, Blacks have advanced to the 20-yard line. What happens then? Is that enough? Do indigenous people in 2080 want more? Are they denouncing Canada? Is there a Indigenous Lives Matter wanting another flag and national anthem at CFL games? Is Sliver's grandchild still apologizing? What's happens? What is enough?
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Old 07-24-2021, 05:11 AM   #402
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It’s the mob mentality.
Agreed with Pete. Grrr. It really chaps my ass when the mob demands racists stop being represented in stone and copper. How else will we remember how horrible they were? This is basically like fascism.
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Old 07-24-2021, 09:46 AM   #403
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Let's take a step back.

Imagine a family member was a victim of Clifford Olson, Paul Bernardo, or Robert Pickton.

Imagine having to live on Olson Lane, then drive down the Bernardo Expressway to get to your workplace on Pickton Ave.

Every day a constant reminder of your loss, the tragedy and knowing the city is honoring someone that caused you so much grief.

Then having after years or decades or a lifetime of this, the city says "wait a second, we really should change these names" only to have people say "who cares; it'll cost too much; doesn't bother me; get over it; what if I offered you a gift card to keep it".

Holy crow, I think those reactions would cause me to spiral.

Yes, it's gonna cost money. Yes it'll cause some logistical headaches, but also remove a cause of strife.

One of the local high-schools here just changed the name of the sports teams. They were the Redmen. I always associated the team name as being unoriginal and being a color and man. If the school's color was blue, they'd be the Bluemen, if it was green they'd be the Greenmen.

Never in my life did I associate it with being racial.

However, one of the local indigenous communities (which is a feeder to the high school) didn't like it.

So they changed the name.

While I never thought of it as racist. Others did. I didn't throw my arms up in the air and cry foul, I said "I never thought of it that way, but if you to, change the name."

I'm about as tied to the school's nickname as I am to the name of a street. I value humans over the names of things. If it makes the world a better place to change it, who cares. Change it.

Why would I defend naming something after someone that caused strife to others?
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Old 07-24-2021, 09:52 AM   #404
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Maritime: that's fine to change but at what point is it OK to move on? Say today you remove all street names and status? Does it end? Do we keep unearthing things re-hashing the same things over and over? Does you child or your grandchild keep having to apologize?

I think most people would support the line in the sand if that line were to be defined.
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Old 07-24-2021, 09:59 AM   #405
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Originally Posted by GirlySports View Post
Maritime: that's fine to change but at what point is it OK to move on? Say today you remove all street names and status? Does it end? Do we keep unearthing things re-hashing the same things over and over? Does you child or your grandchild keep having to apologize?

I think most people would support the line in the sand if that line were to be defined.
Congratulations! Your logical fallacy is: Slippery slope.
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Old 07-24-2021, 11:04 AM   #406
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Congratulations! Your logical fallacy is: Slippery slope.
Is it not true? You end up retrying things over and over. When does atonement really end?
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Old 07-24-2021, 11:08 AM   #407
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Is it not true? You end up retrying things over and over. When does atonement really end?
What have we already done, that we are now trying over and over? It seems to me we have to try it once, before saying it is repeating.
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Old 07-24-2021, 11:13 AM   #408
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What have we already done, that we are now trying over and over? It seems to me we have to try it once, before saying it is repeating.


It is repeating. Like today we will remove the name of this school, tomorrow we will remove the name of this street. And then council has to vote over and over. We'll do this, but not do that.

I mean how Ryerson is still named Ryerson at this hour is insane. Every case-by-case is a fight.

At some point, there needs to be a federal investigation. These are all the dudes that had anything to do with residential schools, remove their names from anything and everything in Canada. Then at least that part is closed and we don't have to revisit it.
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Old 07-24-2021, 11:37 AM   #409
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At some point, there needs to be a federal investigation.
THERE WAS. Are you really unfamiliar with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and the resulting Calls to Action?
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Old 07-24-2021, 11:42 AM   #410
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THERE WAS. Are you really unfamiliar with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and the resulting Calls to Action?

Calls to actions are just that. And mostly ignored. They're not laws.
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Old 07-24-2021, 11:49 AM   #411
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GirlySports: "We can't keep re-hashing the grievances from history. Where does it stop? We must draw a line in the sand."

Also GirlySports: "We need yet another federal investigation into Residential Schools!"
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Old 07-24-2021, 12:03 PM   #412
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Originally Posted by MarchHare View Post
GirlySports: "We can't keep re-hashing the grievances from history. Where does it stop? We must draw a line in the sand."

Also GirlySports: "We need yet another federal investigation into Residential Schools!"

Okay, true enough, we can use that report. But we need laws and finality, that's all I'm saying. We've not acted on those calls to action.

If we hadn't found corpses, still would have been nothing.
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Old 07-24-2021, 12:09 PM   #413
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Originally Posted by GirlySports View Post
Maritime: that's fine to change but at what point is it OK to move on? Say today you remove all street names and status? Does it end? Do we keep unearthing things re-hashing the same things over and over? Does you child or your grandchild keep having to apologize?

I think most people would support the line in the sand if that line were to be defined.
Things that are named by the government.

There's your line.

What things named by the government? All of them. Period.

Buildings, parks, streets, schools, holidays, whatever.

Government shouldn't be honoring people that committed atrocities.

Government shouldn't be using racial slurs.

We as a society can't say that it's ok rename Adolf Hilter Drive but not Adolph Hitler High School because where does it end?

Should it be done peacemeal? I'd be totally fine if a municipal, provincial or federal government wants to do as many as they can all at once.
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Old 07-24-2021, 12:10 PM   #414
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Okay, true enough, we can use that report. But we need laws and finality, that's all I'm saying. We've not acted on those calls to action.

If we hadn't found corpses, still would have been nothing.
In fairness, when we do any action people are up in arms saying get over it and where does it end.

A poor excuse but it is the reality of the situation.
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Old 07-24-2021, 12:12 PM   #415
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Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout View Post
Things that are named by the government.

There's your line.

What things named by the government? All of them. Period.

Buildings, parks, streets, schools, holidays, whatever.

Government shouldn't be honoring people that committed atrocities.

Government shouldn't be using racial slurs.

We as a society can't say that it's ok rename Adolf Hilter Drive but not Adolph Hitler High School because where does it end?

Should it be done peacemeal? I'd be totally fine if a municipal, provincial or federal government wants to do as many as they can all at once.
I know this was a typo, but now I cant stop laughing at the prospect of someone going through life with the name:

'Adolf Hilter'

That bastard ruined it for everyone!
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Old 07-24-2021, 12:21 PM   #416
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I know this was a typo, but now I cant stop laughing at the prospect of someone going through life with the name:

'Adolf Hilter'

That bastard ruined it for everyone!
Samir: No one in this country can ever pronounce my name right. It's not that hard: Samir Na-gheen-an-a-jar. Nagheenanajar.

Michael Bolton: Yeah, well at least your name isn't Michael Bolton.

Samir: You know there's nothing wrong with that name.

Michael Bolton: There was nothing wrong with it... until I was about 12 years old and that no-talent ass clown became famous and started winning Grammys.

Samir: Hmm... well why don't you just go by Mike instead of Michael?

Michael Bolton: No way. Why should I change? He's the one who sucks.
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Old 07-24-2021, 01:09 PM   #417
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Originally Posted by Locke View Post
I know this was a typo, but now I cant stop laughing at the prospect of someone going through life with the name:

'Adolf Hilter'

That bastard ruined it for everyone!

Hahaha, yes, clearly mistyped on my phone.

But now I can't correct it
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Old 07-24-2021, 01:13 PM   #418
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Hahaha, yes, clearly mistyped on my phone.

But now I can't correct it
Leave it! I cant stop seeing Nina the receptionist saying:

"Adolf Hilter? Is that your real name?"

Unfortunately ol' Adolf can't change his name. He bit a bullet in a bunker in Berlin and even if he hadnt its quite distinctive.
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Old 07-24-2021, 02:16 PM   #419
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THERE WAS. Are you really unfamiliar with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and the resulting Calls to Action?
Obviously everyone is unfamiliar with the TRC report. The one thing I find pretty funny about all this is that everyone seems to have gravitated to a virtue signal that isn’t even in the TRC report’s calls to action. The committee put all that work in, and I’m very sure the mob hasn’t even tried reading it. To be fair, I guess, it’s a lot easier to tweet that a building needs to change names than to read a 600 page executive summary.

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Old 07-24-2021, 07:36 PM   #420
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This guy would be ####ed if he wasn't recording.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1418999469241257990
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