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Old 12-26-2019, 02:01 PM   #221
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Tesla reduced battery capacity due to the fires, so it was for safety reasons. I'd be a little ticked if I bought a vehicle with one stated range, and later it got reduced because of engineer issues.


The obvious difference between reduced ICE range and battery is it's pretty quick to fill up a gas tank vs charging, and it isn't all that expensive to restore most of the range with maintenance, unlike a battery replacement. A lot of people in that Tesla thread also reported longer and longer charging times at fast chargers, so not only do you lose range, it takes longer to refill.



I'm not saying all this to rag on Tesla, just that there are specific and inherent challenges to EV's that don't exist in ICE's, just as there are issues with ICE's that don't exist in EV's. But EV issues are not as easy to solve, and may be more frustrating when they occur.
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Old 12-26-2019, 02:20 PM   #222
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^




I'm not saying all this to rag on Tesla, just that there are specific and inherent challenges to EV's that don't exist in ICE's, just as there are issues with ICE's that don't exist in EV's. But EV issues are not as easy to solve, and may be more frustrating when they occur.
Comparing an EVs powertrain to that of today's ICEs isn't fair or reasonable. A better comparison considering the amount of miles and experience would be an early 50's era ICE. In our lifetimes, ICEs will become an enthusiast market only.

It's incredible how quickly that EVs have become a legitimate challenge to supplanting ICEs as primary form of transportation.
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Old 12-26-2019, 03:15 PM   #223
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I don't think it is unfair to compare current technologies, as that is the choice buyers have. No one is car shopping for one from the 50's.
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Old 12-26-2019, 03:38 PM   #224
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Comparing an EVs powertrain to that of today's ICEs isn't fair or reasonable. A better comparison considering the amount of miles and experience would be an early 50's era ICE.
Why? Electric motors and batteries are centuries old technology, the electric car existed in the early days of the passenger car.

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It's incredible how quickly that EVs have become a legitimate challenge to supplanting ICEs as primary form of transportation.
It's only taken them a century and helped with massive government intervention. Lose that and sales drop, it didn't take long for the euphoric Chinese EV market of the second half of 2018 and early 2019 turn 180 when the EV subsidies began to be cut. New Energy Vehicle sales are down (over the same month in 2018) 34% in September, 45% in October and 44% in November. And it turns out in the Chinese market, most buyers of NEVs are fleet operators:
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Of the nearly 900,000 NEVs sold in China in the first nine months of this year, just over 100,000 went to consumers, said Wang Yongqing, president of General Motors’ Shanghai joint venture, SAIC General Motors Corp. Ltd., speaking at the show. Most of the rest are going to fleet operators, such as city bus and taxi services.
https://www.caixinglobal.com/2019-11...101486495.html

And a huge part of the current savings of EV is because governments take such a large share of fuel revenue, in Europe they account for the majority of the cost of fuel. No doubt they'll expect drivers to continue to pay for it, regardless of what they drive.
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Old 12-26-2019, 05:02 PM   #225
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Come on now. You seem knowledgeable about the issue and thus know very well that electric vehicles were largely abandoned from the 1920s until EV1.

If you want to have a debate, I'm game. But not if you are going to throw out disingenuous anecdotes.
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Old 12-26-2019, 05:55 PM   #226
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Come on now. You seem knowledgeable about the issue and thus know very well that electric vehicles were largely abandoned from the 1920s until EV1.
But electric motors and batteries were not, they have been under constant development and improvement (because of their immense utility for industry, military, consumer) like internal combustion engines.
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Old 12-27-2019, 12:48 PM   #227
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Electrical signals have been around since the electron, game over.
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Old 12-28-2019, 03:42 PM   #228
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I don’t think he’s wrong here. What does the business model for an EV charging station look like? How does somebody make that into a profitable business? It’s not like the gig economy where you let somebody use your spare outlet outside to charge up.
Take a look at how many vehicle manufacturers are transitioning to EV manufacturing.

How many years ahead of the game is Tesla in building out their super charger network? At some point all those EVs are going to need a charging station, and Tesla will be right there to offer up their stations as an option.

After watching Tesla the last ten years, and what they've accomplished, I think it is fairly obvious that all the detractors are simply thinking year 2020, while Tesla is thinking year 2050.

5 years from now I think people will be stupid NOT to buy a Tesla. The price will be crazy affordable as is, and when you factor in the EV side of things, lower maintenance costs, lower cost of ownership, longer durability, etc, etc it will be a financial loss NOT to buy a Tesla or even perhaps other EVs.

All the complaints that people have voiced in this thread are solvable. Longer range? Battery degradation? Quicker charging? More charging spots? Quicker manufacturing? Better price? All solvable problems.

Can Ford make the F-150 more affordable?
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Old 12-28-2019, 03:46 PM   #229
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I'm curious how the fluctuating rate of electricity would be handled too, at least with a tank by tank basis you can charge per L to cover what you paid plus your margin (ideally this would work for entire storage tanks but we know everyone does a keeping up with the Jones' pricing).
Honestly, at least attempt to ask intelligent questions.

How do people deal with the fluctuation of gas prices? Oh right.

There is also the whole idea of Tesla building out their energy storage platform into charging stations by combining their solar and storage concept. Avoiding peak power prices and all that. Might not be there yet, but with the continued development of solar & battery storage one would think at some point it will be feasible.

It honestly amazes me how people don't see the future here. Its pretty obvious.
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Old 12-28-2019, 05:46 PM   #230
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Can Ford make the F-150 more affordable?

Well ya, they just need to strip out all the do-dads. If manufacturers want a more affordable vehicle, they could easily do it. But the profit margin is higher at the high end.


I don't think anyone is suggesting ICE's are the future. Most people understand some form of electric propulsion is probably the future. But there are clear challenges now, and there will be in the future as more people adopt them. Are we not allowed to discuss that?
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Old 12-29-2019, 10:34 AM   #231
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/e...394126?cmp=rss


Some interesting stuff here, from recycling to mining. Do those salt flats look as bad as the oilsands? Going to need a lot of it in the future.
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Old 12-29-2019, 10:40 AM   #232
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Lithium, as price goes up can be obtained from other sources. Just outside of Leduc there is a Brine pilot where they take brackish water out of the ground filter out the lithium then re-inject the brine into the ground. So impact in that process is quite small.

Good environmental regulation and charging for externalities will allow the market to select the best tech.

One thing the CO2 emissions chart shows is that selecting a smaller more efflicient vehicle is still really important even for eVs.

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Old 12-30-2019, 10:44 AM   #233
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Cobalt, aluminum, manganese etc. why don't people talk about these materials? Why is it always about lithium.
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