Star Wars

[bc-chris]

this made me laugh...


stormtrooper by bc-chris, on Flickr

[CaptainCrunch]

Kennedy discusses the future of Star Wars movies, I think they they have learned that this trilogy didn't help them with the Star Wars Fans. I think they also realized they blundered when they killed the old EU.


https://thedirect.com/article/star-w...e-of-franchise

[Nyah]

Pretty incredible interview from John Boyega in GQ (link below). I know a lot of us had a LOT of issues with The Last Jedi and the new Star Wars installments as a whole, and it turns out so did he. It's fascinating to read about his experience directly from him unfiltered. Honestly I can only imagine how amazing it must feel to finally get this stuff off his chest. It makes me wonder what this means for the future of the franchise and whether Disney will make any changes.

"What I would say to Disney is do not bring out a black character, market them to be much more important in the franchise than they are and then have them pushed to the side. It’s not good. I’ll say it straight up.” He is talking about himself here – about the character of Finn, the former Stormtrooper who wielded a lightsaber in the first film before being somewhat nudged to the periphery. But he is also talking about other people of colour in the cast – Naomi Ackie and Kelly Marie Tran and even Oscar Isaac (“a brother from Guatemala”) – who he feels suffered the same treatment; he is acknowledging that some people will say he’s “crazy” or “making it up”, but the reordered character hierarchy of The Last Jedi was particularly hard to take.

“Like, you guys knew what to do with Daisy Ridley, you knew what to do with Adam Driver,” he says. “You knew what to do with these other people, but when it came to Kelly Marie Tran, when it came to John Boyega, you know #### all. So what do you want me to say? What they want you to say is, ‘I enjoyed being a part of it. It was a great experience...’ Nah, nah, nah. I’ll take that deal when it’s a great experience. They gave all the nuance to Adam Driver, all the nuance to Daisy Ridley. Let’s be honest. Daisy knows this. Adam knows this. Everybody knows. I’m not exposing anything.”

Even though he also acknowledges that it was an “amazing opportunity” and a “stepping stone” that has precipitated so much good in his life and career, he is palpably exhilarated to be finally saying all this. But to dismiss these words as merely professional bitterness or paranoia is to miss the point. His primary motivation is to show the frustrations and difficulties of trying to operate within what can feel like a permanently rigged system. He is trying, really, to let you know what it feels like to have a boyhood dream ruptured by the toxic realities of the world.

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/cultur...interview-2020

[Cecil Terwilliger]

As if I didn’t hate Rian Johnson enough.

If JJ had an idea for an arc, I’d love to hear it, the whole trilogy, not just Finn. Finn is a popular character despite Disney having no clear place for him or character arc.

[Locke]

Well....he is completely off base and incorrect.

Disney had no idea what they were doing with Ridley or Driver either.

I'm not sure if it was a faux-woke thing or what, but in fairness to Disney and the directors of this Star Wars Trilogy they absolutely were 'Equal Opportunity.'

They ruined all of the characters equally.

"You have this character, do something with him!"

Frankly, they didnt do anything of importance or interest with any of the characters, so Finn really isnt special in that regard.

[Nyah]

Originally Posted by Locke

Well....he is completely off base and incorrect.

Disney had no idea what they were doing with Ridley or Driver either.

I think they did a particularly egregious job with Finn and Rose though, specifically in TLJ. They were delegated to a useless, time wasting side quest that had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of the movie while other characters carried the plot. Even Laura Dern's character was more impactful and she was the WORST. He's right - looking back at the trailer for TFA, he was a badass wielding a lightsaber. They made his character out to be something that they wouldn't let him live up to. Instead in TLJ he was basically the comedic relief. They did his character dirty and it's really a shame because JB is such a great actor.

[CroFlames]

Yeah I got bad news for John Boyega. They messed up everything and everyone from start to finish. He was not singled out. There was no arc or direction.

Rey & Finn should have been developed as a dynamic duo that eventually defeated the enemy together.

[blankall]

This is what happens when you jam a bunch of characters into a story just for the sake of it, instead of coming up with characters that grow organically and a story line that is cohesive.

As far as Finn's character goes, they basically destroyed his story line when Phasma fell down a pit. He went from a character set up to have some great confrontation with his former abusers to a sidekick. I guess there was always the romantic story line between him and Rose/Poe?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Nyah

I think they did a particularly egregious job with Finn and Rose though, specifically in TLJ. They were delegated to a useless, time wasting side quest that had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of the movie while other characters carried the plot. He's right - looking back at the trailer for TFA, he was a badass wielding a lightsaber. They did his character dirty and it's really a shame because JB is such a great actor.

I wont disagree, I like Boyega (Attack the Block!!). A lot of the characters had potential and there were a lot of things teased that never went anywhere.

Like...were Finn and Rey supposed to get together? Why introduce Rose at all? Speaking of why introduce people at all....no, sorry that list is too long.

You could go on and on. I just think overall from watching that Trilogy that they didnt plan to sidetrack racially diverse characters....they couldnt have...because they didnt have a plan.

One of their biggest issues was having too many characters and no clear idea as to what all these people were supposed to be doing.

Anyways, I'm half-joking because the whole thing seems like such a thrown-together mess that I have a hard time assigning blame for any one thing here or there.

Did they ruin Finn who was an interesting character? Absolutely. But they did that to everybody which contravenes his assertion that they 'had a plan' for Ridley and Driver.

Nobody had a plan for anything. He could be the victim of sheer incompetence as easily as bigotry.

I've mentioned this before, but nobody really cared about any of these characters. Ever.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Nyah

I think they did a particularly egregious job with Finn and Rose though, specifically in TLJ. They were delegated to a useless, time wasting side quest that had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of the movie while other characters carried the plot. Even Laura Dern's character was more impactful and she was the WORST. He's right - looking back at the trailer for TFA, he was a badass wielding a lightsaber. They made his character out to be something that they wouldn't let him live up to. Instead in TLJ he was basically the comedic relief. They did his character dirty and it's really a shame because JB is such a great actor.

If you know what that Plot was I'd love to hear it.

Everyone was delegated to a useless side quest.

You could pretend that whole film wasnt made and it wouldnt change the outcome of the Trilogy one bit.

The only piece of importance from their side quest was that 'anyone could have The Force' as evidenced by the kid too lazy to sweep with his hands at the end.

[CaptainCrunch]

I'm not coming down on JB here, but at the same time I think that we need to seperate a couple of things here.


It wasn't as much about Race as it was about the whole trilogy being badly written and executed after TFA. Rian did a massive disservice to the trilogy, and really so did JJ and so did Disney. There's also a sense on my part that they outright panicked over the lashback from the Star Wars fan base and they did the absolute wrong thing in that they tried to win them back with a terrible example of blatent Fan Servicing by bringing Palpatine back, and then focusing really on two main characters in Rey and Kylo and everything got pushed off to the side.


The Rose storyline was the Jar Jar Binks of the ST, the Story line that was suppossed to be a big storyline and make her a sympathetic character and a romance character for Finn was terrible and flat and it was almost like Rian was yelling from the roof "You have to like her because of bad situations". It didn't work. Then they really got the jitters and when the fans said they hated her (which by the way, what the fans did to her was awful). They pulled a full Jar Jar and she virtually vanished in the last movie and worse yet, they had Finn pretty much ghost her.


Finn could have had a great character arc, a defecting Storm Trooper, its an interesting story, but they really murdered it in TLJ, when he basically became a combination of a character piece, a running stereotype, and he didn't really do anything with him, and again in the last movie he was a cardboard cutout.


Poe was really suppossed to die at the end of the first movie, instead Rian made him a comedy character with that stupid open in TLJ, and the whole redemption arc and becoming a leader arc, and then paying it lip service in the third movie.


I guess what I'm saying is it isn't a race issue for me, as a blindingly stupid writing effort, and a second movie that murdered it, and a third movie where they were like how do we fix it to get fans to want to see it. Palpatine.


Thanks to Rian, and Disney panicking, this thing was the Snakes on a Plane of Star Wars.


From a standpoint of proof


Killed off Snoke for no other reason then he was a read shirt, and that left them without a primary big bad in the third if the true story arc was always the redemption of Ren


Maz and the whole lightsabre thing, and then they completely dropped it and she because a background character in the next movies


One of the worst things was the treatment of Hux. They went from a egotistical power hungry but some what competant evil leader, to a buffoon who they basically in the last movie revealed that he was a spy and then disposed of him.


Phasma was an outright joke, and the handling of her was terrible, is anyone ever going to look at her as an example of breaking the glass ceiling and buy her action figure? Nah, instead she's a bumbling coward that died like a punk.


Palpatine went from this really interesting and devious character to a monster of the week, saying dumb things, and he died in the lamest way possible.



Its incredible the amount of damage that TLJ did to the trilogy, and how panic made the third movie underwhelming.


With the OT - Great ensemble cast where everyone had something to do, and a great story that was logical and had a satisfying ending.


With the PT - Realistically a really good story line, but it was poorly executed, it should have been a four movie series. There are a lot of things that I would want to change, but I didn't hate the PT.


ST - Rian wrecked it, but this is on Disney and the show runners who should have seen the script and went, this is horrible and your giving us nothing to work with in the last movie, and you've disconnected a bunch of story lines, and added story lines that made little sense in the scheme of things. So now we're f'd, Star Wars fans are pissed, and oh yeah, the main villain was killed like a Red Shirt, so Fan Service, we might as well kick sand on Palpatine as well.


I get what JB is saying, and to an extend I agree with it, but bigger picture is a lot deeper, all the characters were wrecked.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Locke

If you know what that Plot was I'd love to hear it.

Everyone was delegated to a useless side quest.

You could pretend that whole film wasnt made and it wouldnt change the outcome of the Trilogy one bit.

The only piece of importance from their side quest was that 'anyone could have The Force' as evidenced by the kid too lazy to sweep with his hands at the end.

LOL, I can see the Disney meeting after the release.


KK - "So we have that last scene with the kid and the force and the Resistance ring, that's awesome think of the merchandising as we see Rey finding Jedi kids or something"


JJ - "I'm dropping it, it's literally going to mean nothing, and in fact at the end of the movie there's only going to be one uber Jedi and that's Rey."


KK - "Oh"

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by bc-chris

this made me laugh...


stormtrooper by bc-chris, on Flickr

I think it was in Dark Forces two, when you're in the Imperial base, and you open a door and see a bunch of Storm troopers at the urinal. So you throw in a grenade and close the door to kill them"

[djsFlames]

Well you really can't get more Disney than "any one could use the force, like you, and you, even you!"

Notice the key difference between the ST and Mandalorian which many have said feels more authentically SW is that its not so intently focused on injecting heart and warm fuzzies into the story and characters. You have cute aliens for that. It focuses on badass, morally grey characters duking it out for personal gain in a merciless and dangerous universe. An episodic space western. None of that describes the sequels. Essentially Har(rey) Potter in space with a big budget riding on nostalgia fuel.

Each trilogy has a different "soul" to it, in fact. They've progressively watered down the identity of the franchise and that makes it hard to attract new fans when people are not sure what they're signing on for/why. It used to be "omg star wars!" as it was those movies that captured our imagination and now younger people are pretty abundantly in the "meh, star wars" camp.

Its too bad Disney didn't take more time to study its predecessor in order to preserve the soul of the old into the new like the people behind Mandalorian did (better) later on.

They were seeing dollar signs and eager to capitalize, thinking that injecting old characters into a vanilla, undercooked plot (which in its entirety felt like it made a lot of noise but didn't advance the overall plot at all) was enough to "bring star wars back", when it required much more than that.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Well you really can't get more Disney than "any one could use the force, like you, and you, even you!"

Notice the key difference between the ST and Mandalorian which many have said feels more authentically SW is that its not so intently focused on injecting heart and warm fuzzies into the story and characters. You have cute aliens for that. It focuses on badass, morally grey characters duking it out for personal gain in a merciless and dangerous universe. An episodic space western. None of that describes the sequels. Essentially Har(rey) Potter in space with a big budget riding on nostalgia fuel.

I think that people forget that for a long time, past ROTJ, the premise was anyone could be trained to use the Force. We saw it in Dark Empire where the loss of the Jedi meant that nobody really knew how to train people to use the Force, and Palpatine could literally zap the Force into his evil doing advisors. It was a degree of how strong you were in your connection to the force.


I liked the concept in the ST that only certain people could be trained to use the force and some had a more powerful connection then the others. The parasites in your blood was a clumsy was to quantify it.



The other thing that I really liked was the visuals of the galaxy, in the ST trilogy everything was pretty and colorful and had chrome in it and the dress was elaborate. The Galaxy in the OT was grey and color less and everything had a worn down look to it. There was a distinct visualization in the ST. But I love the idea in the OT that the galaxy was a pretty grim place, and the logical connection is in the ST without the order of the Empire no matter how evil they were their intention of bringing Order to the galaxy wasn't really a bad idea. Realically in the ST, it should have been complete anarchy in the galaxy and civil wars everywhere. That's why I like the Mando series, because you get a sense that especially on the outer ring, its complete anarchy, with no ruling power. We've heard nothing about the government that's stepped in period, which is great.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I think his point is that when episode 9 came about, JJ tried to fix Rey and Ren. Finn and Rose...not so much.

Rose I think JJ wanted to retcon out of existence, just not a good character, not a race thing. Finn he had nothing so relegated him to another bad side mission when he was clearly supposed to be more of Han levels of involvement similar to ROTJ.

[getbak]

I've never understood the complaint about the Force-sensitive kid at the end of TLJ.

The prequels very-clearly established that the Force is random and anyone could be Force-sensitive. It also established that some Force-sensitives could easily go undetected if they were born on the fringes (of either the Republic or society).

That's the entire basis of the Jedi order. They go around the Galaxy testing infants and any that meet their criteria get taken away to be trained as Jedi. Anakin was 9 years-old in TPM and was considered too old to begin training.

It appears that multi-generational Jedi have stronger Force-sensitivity than first-generation Jedi, which is likely the reason the Jedi have their "no babies" rule.


Even the very foundation on which Luke and Kylo's storyline from the sequel trilogy has the idea of random Force-sensitivity at its base. Luke went out and found Force-sensitives to train in his efforts to re-establish the Jedi order.

If the full Jedi order was unable to find every Force-sensitive child, there's no way Luke alone could have done so -- and the kid at the end of TLJ would have been born long after Luke gave up looking.

[CroFlames]

Man, this just opened up old wounds.

I watched TFA probably 8-10 times before TLJ came out. I've only seen TLJ and TROS once each in the theater.

Alas, we still have some good star wars stuff out there. The prequels (fight me), the originals, Clone Wars, Mandalorian, Rogue One and Solo. The sequels should just be stricken from the record.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I think TLJ was suggesting it isn’t random when it comes to “force sensitivity”. Instead just believing hard enough makes it work.

But that’s wrong too. Anyone can follow the force but only some, like Luke, Rey, Ren, for obvious reasons, have “force sensitivity”. Not anyone can up and be a Jedi because their heart is in the right place. But with dedication and training, maybe one day they could. Force sensitivity is just possessing a predisposition to becoming a Jedi. Or Sith I guess.

This idea only those born into it could ever become Jedi that developed later on in SW lore is, IMO, just plain wrong and not in line with the OG trilogy. And midochlorians or whatever the #### do not exist and never did. Jedi are many things but biologists is clearly not one of them.

[Locke]

They just felt that:

Adding Characters = Interesting - Ergo Diversity WIN!!!

They have to actually do something. Have some substance to them. We have to care about them.

The closest we got to that was Ren/Ben being Han's Son, which, over 3 movies is pretty thin.

"Who is Rey? Is she Jedi Royalty? Is she nobody? Who knows??" Again...over 3 movies you eventually stop caring.

Its like if Jay-Z were an Insurance Actuary instead of an International Musical Sensation. Its going to affect your level of interest in his actions.