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Old 07-17-2019, 10:41 AM   #21
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Do they live in the exact same circumstance? Canada is a larger country with a significantly lower population.


Obviously not. Everyone lives in different circumstances. Canadians happen to enjoy the best circumstances on earth. We are lucky enough to consume more than nearly any other people on earth. What entitles us to produce more substantially more waste than other people on earth?
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Old 07-17-2019, 10:43 AM   #22
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This is the site that did the "research" and I use that term loosely.
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To identify the largest producers of waste, 24/7 Tempo calculated the special waste and regular municipal solid waste per capita produced by each country, using data from the World Bank’s “What a Waste” global database, last updated in September of 2018. We summed for each country the metric tons (or tonnes) of waste in the latest year for which data was available in the special categories of agricultural waste, construction and demolition, e waste, hazardous waste, industrial waste, medical waste, and the total municipal solid waste (msw).

https://247tempo.com/these-are-the-w...cers-of-waste/


The main page is full of Buzzfeed worthy articles.



The source data is here:
https://datacatalog.worldbank.org/da...lobal-database
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Old 07-17-2019, 10:47 AM   #23
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Why? How else should we measure? Should a Canadian be entitled to produce 40 times as much waste as a Chinese citizen?
The problem is you need to define 'waste'. If the Canadian is producing 40 pounds of livestock manure that is tilled back into the soil as natural fertilizer and the Chinese citizen produces 1 pound of toxic heavy metal waste that is dumped into the ocean, then yes, the Canadian should be allowed to produce 40 times as much.
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Old 07-17-2019, 10:49 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Weitz View Post
Do they live in the exact same circumstance? Canada is a larger country with a significantly lower population.
Only 4% smaller in land area (China), but yes much more population. 37 times more.

Canada could be a population of only a dozen people and robots operating all of the industry for export and the per capita would be outrageous. A lot of this industrial waste data isn't easily attributed to the citizens.
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Old 07-17-2019, 11:15 AM   #25
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While there are certainly flaws with any global list presented in this manner, what is interesting is comparing Canada to similar nations.

Australia, a nation with essentially all the same conditions as Canada which would lead to an unfavorable showing in a per-capita list like this, does not show up in the top ten. Australia is extremely large, with a similar low population-density, level of development, and enormous agricultural and industrial (particularly mining and energy extraction) sectors. There is every reason to expect Australia would end up with similar waste-production per-capita numbers to Canada on a list like this, and yet, they do not.
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Old 07-17-2019, 11:19 AM   #26
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^
But that could be due to any number of reasons. Do they report mine waste like rocks? Is all waste tracked? The only way you can compare 2 countries is if they use all the same reporting systems, classifications etc. If they don't it makes the whole exercise pointless.
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Old 07-17-2019, 11:22 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by driveway View Post
While there are certainly flaws with any global list presented in this manner, what is interesting is comparing Canada to similar nations.

Australia, a nation with essentially all the same conditions as Canada which would lead to an unfavorable showing in a per-capita list like this, does not show up in the top ten. Australia is extremely large, with a similar low population-density, level of development, and enormous agricultural and industrial (particularly mining and energy extraction) sectors. There is every reason to expect Australia would end up with similar waste-production per-capita numbers to Canada on a list like this, and yet, they do not.
Norway is probably a better example. Has a similar climate, economic base, and population density. Still, no where near as close as Canada in terms of waste.
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Old 07-17-2019, 11:34 AM   #28
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Why? How else should we measure? Should a Canadian be entitled to produce 40 times as much waste as a Chinese citizen?
It's the same as using GHG per capita. Waste, like pollution, is not diluted by number of people. A tonne of waste is a tonne of waste, no matter which side of the artificial line on a map you live on.

The use of per capita in cases like this is deliberately disingenuous, and is specifically designed to give the appearance that large population centres aren't nearly as bad.
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Old 07-17-2019, 11:44 AM   #29
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Edmonton drags us down again.
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Old 07-17-2019, 12:00 PM   #30
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Hahaha!

"CANADA PRODUCES THE MOST WASTE IN THE WORLD*!!!!!!!"















*per capita
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Old 07-17-2019, 12:28 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Makarov View Post
Why? How else should we measure? Should a Canadian be entitled to produce 40 times as much waste as a Chinese citizen?
waste isn't produced at an individual level, so why measure it that way?

It's not about entitlement it's about reporting metrics that make sense.

We can work our way off the list by simply opening the flood gates and doubling the population with immigrants. That would cut our per capita garbage production in half, considering the majority of our waste is generated in the industrial space, and the products are generally exported.
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Old 07-17-2019, 12:39 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Makarov View Post
Obviously not. Everyone lives in different circumstances. Canadians happen to enjoy the best circumstances on earth. We are lucky enough to consume more than nearly any other people on earth. What entitles us to produce more substantially more waste than other people on earth?
Does Canada produce more waste than any other country in the world?
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Old 07-17-2019, 12:41 PM   #33
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Better queue up a new tax.
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Old 07-17-2019, 12:56 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Resolute 14 View Post
It's the same as using GHG per capita. Waste, like pollution, is not diluted by number of people. A tonne of waste is a tonne of waste, no matter which side of the artificial line on a map you live on.

The use of per capita in cases like this is deliberately disingenuous, and is specifically designed to give the appearance that large population centres aren't nearly as bad.
I agree with you (but reach the opposite conclusion). Waste, like pollution, is certainly not diluted by number of people. Indeed, waste, like pollution, is created and caused by people. And people benefit from the activities which create and cause waste (and pollution). This is precisely why per capita is the most reasonable way to discuss these issues.

For example, if Alberta separated from the rest of Canada, in purely raw numbers, people living in Alberta would suddenly produce much, much less waste (roughly 90% less than when they were people living in Canada). However, this is meaningless when discussing a global issue of too much waste. Albertans (in this scenario) did not become any more efficient and (all other things remaining equal) would continue to produce the same amount of per capita waste (and continue to contribute to the problem in the same way as before). Albertans would also continue to enjoy all of the benefits of their waste-producing activities.

Are we really going to tell poor people in India that you shouldn't produce any more waste (and shouldn't engage in all of the beneficial waste-producing activities like industry, consumer consumption, etc) because India produces large raw amounts of waste but the residents of Monaco may continue buying super-yachts and drinking bottled water because Monaco produces tiny raw amounts of waste? Does that strike anyone as fair or just?
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Old 07-17-2019, 12:56 PM   #35
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Does Canada produce more waste than any other country in the world?
No, Canada does not. However, if you take this study at face value, then Canadians apparently do.
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Old 07-17-2019, 01:02 PM   #36
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We can work our way off the list by simply opening the flood gates and doubling the population with immigrants. That would cut our per capita garbage production in half, considering the majority of our waste is generated in the industrial space, and the products are generally exported.
Yes, and presuming that nothing else changed (ie, we did not become any more productive or efficient), our standard of living would similarly fall (benefits of the same amount of production now being distributed to double the population). If Canada's per capita GDP was cut in half, it would be similar to Panama or Chile.
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Old 07-17-2019, 01:02 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Resolute 14 View Post
It's the same as using GHG per capita. Waste, like pollution, is not diluted by number of people. A tonne of waste is a tonne of waste, no matter which side of the artificial line on a map you live on.

The use of per capita in cases like this is deliberately disingenuous, and is specifically designed to give the appearance that large population centres aren't nearly as bad.
I was going to say this is no different than the GHG debate. We are small polluters in the big picture yet some get fixated on per capita statistics ignoring the realities of our geography and population density. Now there's always room for improvement as I'm sure we can do better with our GHG emissions and waste but the reality is that we are always going to look poor relative to the rest of the world when viewed simply on a per capita basis.
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Old 07-17-2019, 01:07 PM   #38
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I was going to say this is no different than the GHG debate. We are small polluters in the big picture yet some get fixated on per capita statistics ignoring the realities of our geography and population density. Now there's always room for improvement as I'm sure we can do better with our GHG emissions and waste but the reality is that we are always going to look poor relative to the rest of the world when viewed simply on a per capita basis.
Yes, but we also enjoy all sorts of advantages due to our geography and population density. For example, the benefits of our resource extraction activities (which generate large amounts of waste/pollution) are spread among relatively few people. So why shouldn't Canadians both enjoy the benefits and bear the costs of our relative resource wealth and low population density?
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Old 07-17-2019, 01:26 PM   #39
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I agree with you (but reach the opposite conclusion). Waste, like pollution, is certainly not diluted by number of people. Indeed, waste, like pollution, is created and caused by people. And people benefit from the activities which create and cause waste (and pollution). This is precisely why per capita is the most reasonable way to discuss these issues.

For example, if Alberta separated from the rest of Canada, in purely raw numbers, people living in Alberta would suddenly produce much, much less waste (roughly 90% less than when they were people living in Canada). However, this is meaningless when discussing a global issue of too much waste. Albertans (in this scenario) did not become any more efficient and (all other things remaining equal) would continue to produce the same amount of per capita waste (and continue to contribute to the problem in the same way as before). Albertans would also continue to enjoy all of the benefits of their waste-producing activities.
You're actually arguing my point for me. If Alberta separated from Canada, Albertans would not be producing more or less waste at all. The only thing that changes is the artificial line that determines who gets to look worse. At the same time, you are simultaneously arguing - correctly - that Alberta would not become more efficient despite having a lower population than Canada as a whole while giving China credit - incorrectly - for having a very large population.

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Are we really going to tell poor people in India that you shouldn't produce any more waste (and shouldn't engage in all of the beneficial waste-producing activities like industry, consumer consumption, etc) because India produces large raw amounts of waste but the residents of Monaco may continue buying super-yachts and drinking bottled water because Monaco produces tiny raw amounts of waste? Does that strike anyone as fair or just?
On the one hand, you are attempting to manufacture a straw man as nobody has made that argument.

On the other, you nearly touched the truth of the issue. If the amount of waste humanity creates is a problem, then the amount of waste humanity creates needs to be reduced. Everywhere. The moment you start making excuses based on the size of a region's economy, you subordinate environmental concerns to monetary ones. So, yes, we should be looking at reducing waste everywhere. Because one less tonne produced in Canada is worth the same as one less tonne produced in India. And China. And Monaco.
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Old 07-17-2019, 01:48 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Resolute 14 View Post
You're actually arguing my point for me. If Alberta separated from Canada, Albertans would not be producing more or less waste at all. The only thing that changes is the artificial line that determines who gets to look worse. At the same time, you are simultaneously arguing - correctly - that Alberta would not become more efficient despite having a lower population than Canada as a whole while giving China credit - incorrectly - for having a very large population.
Sorry, I honestly don't understand what you are saying here. How does anything I argued support your position that raw totals of waste production (at the national level) is more useful than per capita data?

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On the one hand, you are attempting to manufacture a straw man as nobody has made that argument.
Didn't mean to make a strawman argument. I just presumed that we were discussing this data in the context of a mutually recognized problem of "human beings produce an unsustainable amount of waste". But not everyone may agree with that premise. Fair enough.

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On the other, you nearly touched the truth of the issue. If the amount of waste humanity creates is a problem, then the amount of waste humanity creates needs to be reduced. Everywhere. The moment you start making excuses based on the size of a region's economy, you subordinate environmental concerns to monetary ones. So, yes, we should be looking at reducing waste everywhere. Because one less tonne produced in Canada is worth the same as one less tonne produced in India. And China. And Monaco.
This, to me, is a gross oversimplification of the problem and the issues. Although waste is an environmental problem, solutions are not solely environmental. There are obvious financial, economic, and human costs to almost every attempt to reduce waste production. The distribution of how those costs are borne (and by who) clearly engages issues of fairness and justice (in my opinion.) Even just on a practical level, if proposed solutions don't seem fair, they won't get any traction.

Generation of pollution and waste is directly and unavoidably (at least for the time being) related to economic growth, production, and development. If you cap (for example) Canada's and India's future waste production at current relative levels, you are essentially also capping Canada's and India's future economic wealth at current relative levels which is great for Canadians but not great for Indians.
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