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Old 09-20-2017, 12:40 PM   #2601
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I'm not sure why people insist on putting together terrible trade proposals and then defend them to the death when people point out how outlandish they are.
isn't that why we have this thread?
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Old 09-20-2017, 12:40 PM   #2602
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I definitely agree.... but I have been thinking, it IS Treliving vs. Sakic. One of them is going to get fleeced, who's your money on?
Thing is, it's not Treliving vs. Sakic. It's Treliving vs. about 7 other general managers, to see who gets to use Sakic as a patsy.
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Old 09-20-2017, 12:42 PM   #2603
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I think Hamonic is too old for what Sakic was after.
As someone (may have been here?) pointed out, he could have then flipped Hamonic to Calgary for the deal NYI got and use those picks as currency to get close to what he wanted.

Just don't see how Sakic survives this, and quite honestly am a little surprised he's being allowed to broker any deal for Duchene, period.
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Old 09-20-2017, 12:43 PM   #2604
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I'm not sure why people insist on putting together terrible trade proposals and then defend them to the death when people point out how outlandish they are.
I'm not sure why people outlandishly dismiss things outright while ignoring established trade market values...is it so that they can later go "oh my goodness, that's all?"

You want to disagree with how high I value an Adam Fox or Rasmus Andersson, that's a fair discussion I think that's worth having - but to just declare it as "outlandish" and to say dismissive things like "come on guy", what's the point? You're not backing your stance in the least.

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Old 09-20-2017, 12:44 PM   #2605
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I definitely agree.... but I have been thinking, it IS Treliving vs. Sakic. One of them is going to get fleeced, who's your money on?
I don't think there's it's Tre vs. Sakic because there are 29 other teams.

If all we have to offer is prospects that aren't immediate and sure NHLers, someone (in a better position to do so) will easily make a better offer.
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Old 09-20-2017, 12:47 PM   #2606
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It's not just the Hamilton deal though. It's the Johansen trade, it's the Drouin trade.

I don't think Sakic can sell anything but a continued rebuild at this stage. Get young, high quality pieces, snag another very high 1st round pick after finishing in the bottom 3, and likely trade off Landeskog during this season as well for a solid return.

We could help Colorado rebuild their blueline.

Rasmus Andersson + Rights to Adam Fox + '19 1st round pick + a young NHL ready guy who could play somewhere in their line-up (Shinkaruk, Klimchuk, Poirier etc). I don't think there is another team out there with the ability to move an Andersson + a Fox + a 1st rounder.
Seth Jones was considered one of the best young defensemen in the game and he was NHL proven

Sergachev is a potential top pairing dman.

Andersson + Fox and a 1st rounder two years down the line just doesn't compare to Jones or Sergachev. 3 B level assets is not the same as 1 A level asset. Quantity does not equal quality.
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Old 09-20-2017, 12:47 PM   #2607
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I'm not sure why people outlandishly dismiss things outright while ignoring established trade market values...is it so that they can later go "oh my goodness, that's all?"

There is nothing that's happened in the trade market that remotely suggests we can trade prospects for Duchene at 50% retained. It is (as was pointed out earlier) laughable.
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Old 09-20-2017, 12:47 PM   #2608
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I don't think there's it's Tre vs. Sakic because there are 29 other teams.

If all we have to offer is prospects that aren't immediate and sure NHLers, someone (in a better position to do so) will easily make a better offer.
So your counter is just "someone else must be better positioned to offer more"...then make a case for it. Who can offer better? Ottawa is rumoured to have balked at involving Ceci or Chabot.

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Old 09-20-2017, 12:49 PM   #2609
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On the other side, Sakic must know now that he isn't getting any better offers than the one he allegedly had with NYI for Hamonic & a 1st.
The value in that trade wasn't the problem. Obviously Hamonic is very valuable and so is the 1st. But Sakic cannot trade one of his offensive stars for a #2/3 defensive dman. They need something sexier back. They need someone that can bring offence.
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Old 09-20-2017, 12:53 PM   #2610
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Andersson + Fox and a 1st rounder two years down the line just doesn't compare to Jones or Sergachev. 3 B level assets is not the same as 1 A level asset. Quantity does not equal quality.
I disagree with your assessment of Andersson and Fox then.

Fox is likely the top NCAA defenceman, and about to be the cornerstone of Team USA's defensive group at the World Jr's.

Andersson is poised to make the jump to the NHL and seems to be trending towards being a 2nd pairing, point producing d-man.

Both players are quality pieces. We're not talking Freddie Sjostrom and Ian White here.
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Old 09-20-2017, 12:54 PM   #2611
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Well I guess that settles it.

We should expect an announcement any minute now.
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Old 09-20-2017, 12:55 PM   #2612
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The value in that trade wasn't the problem. Obviously Hamonic is very valuable and so is the 1st. But Sakic cannot trade one of his offensive stars for a #2/3 defensive dman. They need something sexier back. They need someone that can bring offence.
But couldn't Sakic have ended up with two 1sts and two 2nds or more to go shopping with after flipping Hamonic to Calgary for what the Flames paid the Islanders? Use those picks and the ones they got from the Islanders in the first place and see what you can shake free?
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Old 09-20-2017, 12:58 PM   #2613
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Well I guess that settles it.

We should expect an announcement any minute now.
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Old 09-20-2017, 12:59 PM   #2614
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So your counter is just "someone else must be better positioned to offer more", then make a case for it. Who can offer better? Ottawa is rumoured to have balked at involving Ceci or Chabot.
We're not experts on what other teams have to offer.

Just try and put yourself in Sakic's shoes for a minute. You only have a few key pieces assembled with MacKinnon, Duchene, Landeskog, Jost, Rantanen and Makar, E. Johnson as your grade A commodities. You are under intense pressure to retool as fast as possible. COL already did their rebuild. They drafted Duchene, MacKinnon, Landeskog and made the playoffs. They don't want another full rebuild. They don't want to go backwards and be trading one of their only established Grade A commodities for picks/prospects. Sakic needs someone NHL ready who is a Grade A young player (like a Seth Jones). At worst he needs someone who is a Grade A young player who is close to NHL ready (like a Mikhail Sergachev).

If you were Sakic who would you be targeting from the Flames? The deal would have to revolve around 1 of Bennett, Tkachuk, Jankowski (only if they were high on him and thought he was a top two line centre), Brodie, Hamilton, Gaudreau, or Monahan. I don't think I'd even trade Duchene for a deal entered around Valimaki because he's probably not NHL ready enough to sell that deal to my ownership and my fans.

Put yourself in Sakic's shoes. Like actually think about it from COL's perspective. Don't just cop out and say they're rebuilding and they'd be willing to accept prospects/picks. They don't want to be rebuilding and they don't want to set their rebuild back a couple years by turning an NHL asset into pieces that are not NHL ready.
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Old 09-20-2017, 12:59 PM   #2615
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Sakic "CANNOT" sell Duchene for picks/prospects

AND

Teams have not been willing to trade young NHL calibre defensemen

Something has to give if a deal is made.
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Old 09-20-2017, 01:01 PM   #2616
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I disagree with your assessment of Andersson and Fox then.

Fox is likely the top NCAA defenceman, and about to be the cornerstone of Team USA's defensive group at the World Jr's.

Andersson is poised to make the jump to the NHL and seems to be trending towards being a 2nd pairing, point producing d-man.

Both players are quality pieces. We're not talking Freddie Sjostrom and Ian White here.
Andersson and Fox could both turn out to be busts or top out as bottom pairing defensemen. Too early to say.
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Old 09-20-2017, 01:01 PM   #2617
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But couldn't Sakic have ended up with two 1sts and two 2nds or more to go shopping with after flipping Hamonic to Calgary for what the Flames paid the Islanders? Use those picks and the ones they got from the Islanders in the first place and see what you can shake free?
No. Cause there's no guarantee you can turn the picks into a key young player who is NHL ready or close to NHL ready. What team is willing to trade a top young player for picks? It makes no sense. You can't expect to find a Dougie Hamilton type deal because that type of deal almost never happens.

Sakic has to get back a Grade A young player or Grade A prospect who is on the verge of the NHL. He has to get that piece back in the trade IMO.
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Old 09-20-2017, 01:02 PM   #2618
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Thing is, it's not Treliving vs. Sakic. It's Treliving vs. about 7 other general managers, to see who gets to use Sakic as a patsy.
Good point. However, none of those GMs are Wizards.
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Old 09-20-2017, 01:03 PM   #2619
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We're not experts on what other teams have to offer.

Just try and put yourself in Sakic's shoes for a minute. You only have a few key pieces assembled with MacKinnon, Duchene, Landeskog, Jost, Rantanen and Makar, E. Johnson as your grade A commodities. You are under intense pressure to retool as fast as possible. COL already did their rebuild. They drafted Duchene, MacKinnon, Landeskog and made the playoffs. They don't want another full rebuild. They don't want to go backwards and be trading one of their only established Grade A commodities for picks/prospects. Sakic needs someone NHL ready who is a Grade A young player (like a Seth Jones). At worst he needs someone who is a Grade A young player who is close to NHL ready (like a Mikhail Sergachev).

If you were Sakic who would you be targeting from the Flames? The deal would have to revolve around 1 of Bennett, Tkachuk, Jankowski (only if they were high on him and thought he was a top two line centre), Brodie, Hamilton, Gaudreau, or Monahan. I don't think I'd even trade Duchene for a deal entered around Valimaki because he's probably not NHL ready enough to sell that deal to my ownership and my fans.

Put yourself in Sakic's shoes. Like actually think about it from COL's perspective. Don't just cop out and say they're rebuilding and they'd be willing to accept prospects/picks. They don't want to be rebuilding and they don't want to set their rebuild back a couple years by turning an NHL asset into pieces that are not NHL ready.
If I were Sakic, I'd look at rebuilding my blueline as quick as possible with high quality young pieces. Sakic has a lot of nice players up front, but lacks young defencemen and prospects, alongside a high quality goalie prospect. The Flames COULD offer both.

I'd then realize no one is giving me a Noah Hanifin for 2 years of Matt Duchene, and start thinking of how else I could do it. No one is trading a top pairing d-man in his early 20s for Matt Duchene (...probably the reason Duchene is still an Av), so the best option is to go after guys who look poised to step into that role. I think Fox fits that bill, and I think Andersson could also be the foundation for a 2nd pairing.

Makar, Johnson, Andersson, Fox, Barrie (although he's also rumoured to be on his way out of town) is a very promising blue line.
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Old 09-20-2017, 01:04 PM   #2620
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I disagree with your assessment of Andersson and Fox then.

Fox is likely the top NCAA defenceman, and about to be the cornerstone of Team USA's defensive group at the World Jr's.

Andersson is poised to make the jump to the NHL and seems to be trending towards being a 2nd pairing, point producing d-man.

Both players are quality pieces. We're not talking Freddie Sjostrom and Ian White here.
I'm quite high on Fox and Andersson. They are definitely quality pieces. Sounds like our assessment of them is very similar.

I just don't think Sakic can trade Duchene for two prospects who look like probable 2nd pairing dmen. Fox isn't NHL ready. Andersson is pretty close IMO.

I think Sakic has to get a higher calibre young piece back. I think he wants a probable 1st line young player or a probable top pairing dman young player. I don't think in this case two 2nd pairing dmen prospects and a 1st is equivalent.
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