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Old 07-21-2019, 06:54 PM   #21
Geeoff
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Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post
According to the analysis on Hfboards, Calgary has been the best drafting team in the past four years. From 2012-2015 however, Calgary ranked 21st.

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...e-nhl.2665533/
I feel like 4 years is an awkward time frame because most players drafted in the last 4 years are not fully developed yet. Especially when you consider d-men and goalies.
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Old 07-21-2019, 07:03 PM   #22
Oling_Roachinen
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Canucks went a decade with some very poor first round selections in retrospect. Not just a bunch of busts but players selected a spot or two below that would go on to be quality players.

2007 - Selected White 25th overall, Perron selected 26th
2008 - Selected Hodgson 10th overall, Myers selected 12th, (Karlsson selected 15th)
2009 - Selected Schroeder 22nd overall, Johanson selected 24th
2010 - No first round pick
2011 - Selected Jensen 29th overall, Rakell selected 30th
2012 - Selected Gaunce 26th overall, Skjei selected 28th
2013 - Selected Shinkaruk 24th overall, Theodore selected 26th
2014 - Selected Virtanen 6th overall, Nylander selected 8th overall, Ehlers selected 9th overall
2014 - Selected McCann 24th overall, Pastrnak selected 25th overall
2016 - Selected Juolevi 5th overall, Tkachuk selected 6th overall, Keller selected 7th overall

Pretty much they missed the mark on everyone but Horvat and Boeser in that time.
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Old 07-21-2019, 07:44 PM   #23
Jiri Hrdina
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As mentioned in the other thread, it seems like there has been a clear shift in approach - to focus less on size/grit and more on skill and upside. The former plagues the Sutter drafts. Even though the team drafted in the mid 20s, they struck in the first round in 5 of 6 years (Chucko, Pelech, Irving, Erixon, Nemisz) with few of those picks being highly thought of when they were made (Erixon being a notable exception - but he still ended up busting).

Under Feaster things took a step. I look at 2011 for instance and see solid, rationale picks based on a good approach. The fact that Sven didn't meet his potential doesn't mean that a draft of Sven, Granlund, Wotherspoon, Johnny and Laurent is pretty solid. You've got 4/5 NHLers and a tweener in Wotherspoon.

But I think now under BT he has built on that and allow the scouting staff to take home run cuts, including in later rounds. The results have yet to be proven but the early signs are good. The issue has been lack of picks but they have used the ones they have had very well. 2015 is outstanding already. 2016 is looking very good as well particularly if you have another prospect hit between Parsons, Lindstrom, Tuulola or Philips.

2017 doesn't look great with the later rounds, but 2018 has had a good start, with I think every prospect improving their stock in their draft+1 season - with several taking meaningful steps.

So overall I think you have to be happy with the approach and resist temptation to blame the current regime for mistakes of the past.
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:06 PM   #24
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You missed Backlund Jiri.


Edit:


If you listen to Todd Button, the turnaround started happening under Darryl Sutter. IMO, he consistently takes too much flak for the scouting and development programs. It was him who pushed for the Flames to actually have their own AHL squad so that they could actually develop players. It was under his watch that the Flames started to prioritize character and IQ. I do think that you saw an evolution happening while Darryl was still the GM. One could argue (and be right) that the Flames would have eventually had their own AHL team in time, but he pushed it to happen sooner rather than later. Maybe Brodie wouldn't have developed well enough. Maybe others as well. Tough to say one way or the other. Darryl also got the owners to buy into hiring additional scouts and development personnel. It is fair to criticize him for his misses, but at the same time, I also feel he needs equal amount of praise for kickstarting what the Flames have continued to build upon.


Feaster was a terrible GM, but was smart enough to listen to his scouts and hire additional scouts. However, even under his regime, he quickly identified (and rightfully so) that the Flames needed to obtain bigger prospects. Even in today's NHL - years later - purely skilled and small teams can not compete in a league that still has physicality as a major component of the game. You just can't. It has to be the right mix, and optimally, that size HAS to come with skating ability and a fair amount of skill. That's why the Flames drafted guys like Hunter Smith and Keegan Kanzig. People forget that they were fairly decent goalscorers (in Smith's and others) or were really good at the actual game of hockey (in Kanzig's case - a defensive defencemen that made huge strides in a short time, but unfortunately ended up stalling). Flames didn't draft them as 'goons'. Had they panned out, they would have been a huge help to this team right now (just go back and read their draft info, especially the one where Button got ALL the scouts to take a look at Kanzig, and they all really like him). People like to look at them as just outright goons, but Burke also shared Feaster's apprehension about the lack of size and toughness in the organization might catch up with them.


Treliving has been drafting skill, but he has also had an eye out for big strong players as well who like to drop the mitts:
Pospisll - 6'2" 253PIM in draft year
Fischer - 6'1" 145PIM (lots of fighting majors)


He also has drafted guys with size, who aren't necessarily truculent, but are big bodies:
Falkovsky 6'7"
Bruce 6'7"
Tuulola 6'3" (220lbs)
Mattsson 6'4"
Joly 6'3"
Ruzicka 6'4"


This organization would LOVE to add a couple of Ferland types to the roster. Big guys who hit and are difficult to play against, but who have good wheels and can play the game. Until they ban all contact, this is a contact sport, and the bigger, faster and more skilled you are, the better success you will have, especially come playoff time when the whistles are put away. I would bet that the Flames are still prioritizing size - of course they are! - but are prioritizing other areas more. Still, if the Flames are not managing to get bigger in the next few seasons, I actually sort of expect the needle to move a bit more to prioritizing for size and toughness again.



They have had to bring in guys like Brouwer and Neal - bigger guys that play with an edge - as well as trying to sign guys like Reaves and Maroon.



Players that can play in your top 6 and actually contribute to that line, rather than detract from it, are worth steep prices. It does help if you have a Lucic on your team, but know what helps more? Guys that can play in your top 6 and can battle for pucks and fight through the checks while having IQ, speed and skill. They are so difficult to contain.



I think you will probably continue to see this team prioritize (and hit well) on finding those skilled players that are perhaps undersized. Let's face it, it has been working great for the Flames. They just need to start finding a couple of guys with size as well that can play in the top 6. You need that mix. They are too expensive to acquire in trades usually, and they are often past their best before due date when get a chance to sign them in free agency. Neal and Brouwer would BOTH have been great additions if the Flames drafted them originally, right?



It will be interesting to see the evolution of the draft. I do, however, feel that from Darryl onwards, Todd Button has had the ability to grow into his role better, as well as having a larger voice at the draft table. They managed to hire some really great scouts (let's not forget Webster under Sutter, however!). I see it as a continuity from the past to the present, with a noticeable positive increase every single year starting from Sutter's regime (halfway through that, you will notice that line on the graph start trending upwards).

Last edited by Calgary4LIfe; 07-21-2019 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:12 PM   #25
Jiri Hrdina
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Backlund is the 1 in five out of six
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:16 PM   #26
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Yeah I am totally content with the last few years - seemingly getting roster-type players even outside the top ten, which is what it seemed to me they had missed for, as I said, years and years.

Looking at the graphs at the end of that HF thread, the 'Nucks sure do show up as a bare cabinet, don't they? Wow.
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:28 PM   #27
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The Flames have so many prospects coming up who could end of being great value for where they were drafted...

Emilio Pettersen 6th round
Matthew Phillips 6th round
Martin Pospisil 4th round
Dmitry Zavgorodniy 7th round
Demetrios Koumontzis 4th round
Filip Sveningsson 7th round
Ilya Nikolaev 3rd round
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:40 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey76 View Post
I am amazed with all the scouting and tools in teams hands what a complete crapshoot the draft still is. I have always felt anything 4th round or later is nothing more than luck. Sometimes you are lucky and sometimes you are not. I am too lazy but I wonder if you could fire your whole scouting department and just draft solely on the scouting bureaus number. I bet over 20 years you wouldn’t look out of place.
One thing that's changing quickly is teams drafting the potentially elite skilled guys with flaws as opposed to the "safe" picks who are sure bets for low end NHL'er.

Teams are realizing that with 7 picks in a draft, one or two hits on fast, high scoring forwards that need to work on something is better than 4 hits on guys with a ceiling of NHL checking forward with a higher floor.

Darryl Sutter was the master of the safe NHL'er pick, but it really doesn't get you anything you couldn't sign in August for $700k-$1.2mil.

EDIT: Jiri had already posted what I posted.

Last edited by jayswin; 07-21-2019 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:56 PM   #29
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And I think a little bit of that is due to the shift in salary cap allocation and the formation of "haves" and "have-nots" when it comes to UFAs.

Even a couple years ago if you could get a quality fourth liner that could play on the third line when needed or a 6th defenseman on an ELC/RFA deal it was worth it because any UFA you signed was at a premium.

Now though, there's just so many actual 'NHL players' looking for contracts each off season that they are taking major 'discounts' or show me contracts placing them on par with the ELC/RFA contracts.

There's still Maroon, Boyle, Brassard, Gardiner, Hutton out there right now. You don't need to waste a draft on a 'safe' player with an upside of a bottom pairing defenseman because they're available for cheap.
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Old 07-22-2019, 06:30 AM   #30
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The Flames are particularly good at picking in the 4th and 6th rounds for some reason.

In fact it seems the Flames have reaped more from the 4th/6th rounds than the Oilers have in rounds 2 to 7.
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Old 07-22-2019, 07:45 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen View Post
Canucks went a decade with some very poor first round selections in retrospect. Not just a bunch of busts but players selected a spot or two below that would go on to be quality players.

2007 - Selected White 25th overall, Perron selected 26th
2008 - Selected Hodgson 10th overall, Myers selected 12th, (Karlsson selected 15th)
2009 - Selected Schroeder 22nd overall, Johanson selected 24th
2010 - No first round pick
2011 - Selected Jensen 29th overall, Rakell selected 30th
2012 - Selected Gaunce 26th overall, Skjei selected 28th
2013 - Selected Shinkaruk 24th overall, Theodore selected 26th
2014 - Selected Virtanen 6th overall, Nylander selected 8th overall, Ehlers selected 9th overall
2014 - Selected McCann 24th overall, Pastrnak selected 25th overall
2016 - Selected Juolevi 5th overall, Tkachuk selected 6th overall, Keller selected 7th overall

Pretty much they missed the mark on everyone but Horvat and Boeser in that time.
You can pretty much do that with every team, as no team consistently picks the best player available (using hindsight).
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Old 07-22-2019, 08:40 AM   #32
Jiri Hrdina
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The Flames are particularly good at picking in the 4th and 6th rounds for some reason.

In fact it seems the Flames have reaped more from the 4th/6th rounds than the Oilers have in rounds 2 to 7.
My unfounded theory is that, under the various regimes including Sutter, the scouting staff was given more room to make the picks they wanted to make in the later rounds.

Whereas in the earlier rounds there was more direction provided by the GM.
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Old 07-22-2019, 06:01 PM   #33
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Didn't know where to put this but scott wheeler put out his top 50 prospects on the athletic, and the flames had the of their drafted picks on the list (fox@10, Valimaki@23, dube@49).

Interesting to see the rebuilding canucks only have 1 (hughes@3), and the oilers only have 1 (bouchard@5).

Also,the avs are going to be deadly great team with 3 blue chippers on the list
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Old 07-22-2019, 08:57 PM   #34
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Avs are getting to be a piss-off - they seem to have quietly built a really good organization.
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Old 07-23-2019, 09:37 PM   #35
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Avs are getting to be a piss-off - they seem to have quietly built a really good organization.
The Avs were able to be really bad in the years they were bad and hit on picks in the years they were bad like 2009 Duchene, ORiley, and Barrie with 3,33 and 64

Then after that year they got bad again in 11 and 13 to get Makinnon and Landeskog.

Then they smartly capitalized on Duchene and ORiley to restock their roster around Makinnon and Landeskog

Some real good work maximizing older premium talent that didn’t quite fit in their window.
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