Anybody else on a keto diet?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Funny that the only study I quoted was from the very study used by your snake oil salesman which was used to mislead people into thinking that they can have a quick 30% reduction in BMR (his words). "Big food" is ironic as you're getting information from a guy literally trying to sell you on his next book so he can make that sweet sweet cash.

You do realize that this so-called snake-oil salesmen is more qualified to speak on this subject than you are, correct? And has actually worked with patients and researched fasting, insulin, weight loss and the myriad of other issues involved with the modern diet, correct?

Though it is hilarious how the circle gang loves to jump on what I said. Basic fact is that a reduction in calories will equal a reduction in BMR short term, and especially long-term. Therefore for a healthy person, eating a healthy diet, one would think that your diet and the foods that you choose should be based around maintaining or increasing your BMR. This is where IF and Keto come in, and have been PROVEN to work. Unlike of course the standard cut calories to lose weight approach.

Also, a big part of calorie restriction over a long-period of time is the subsequent loss of muscle tissue. Which of course as anyone will know will play a major part in lowering your BMR as well since it is widely known that increased muscle mass means your BMR will be higher.

Of course, then one would have to turn around and actually admit that fasting has been shown to help maintain muscle mass.

Recent clinical evidence bears out the fact that repeated fasting does not cause muscle loss. In a 2010 study of alternate daily fasting, patients were able to lose significant fat mass with no change in lean mass. In this schedule, subjects eat normally on feeding days, and alternate that with a day of fasting. In addition, numerous metabolic benefits, such as reduced cholesterol, triglycerides and waist circumference were noted along with the weight loss.

A more recent 2016 study compares a strategy of intermittent fasting with daily calorie restriction – the conventional method of weight loss suggested by most health professionals. While both groups lost a comparable amount of weight, the intermittent fasting group lost only 1.2 kg of lean mass compared to 1.6 kg in the calorie restriction group. Comparing the percentage increase in lean mass, the fasting group increased by 2.2% compared to 0.5% in the calorie restriction group, implying that fasting may be up to 4 times better at preserving lean mass according to this measure. Importantly, the fasting group lost more than double the amount of the more dangerous visceral fat

Despite the concerns that fasting may cause loss of muscle, the long human experience as well as human clinical trials show the exact opposite. Intermittent fasting seems to preserve lean tissue better than convention weight loss methods. Thinking again about gluconeogenesis, at first glance, this seems counterintuitive. If intermittent fasting causes gluconeogenesis (turning protein into glucose) how can it possibly be better at preserving muscle? Part of the answer lies in the fact that gluconeogenesis does not start until approximately 24 hours after the last meal. The other part of the answer lies in the hormonal adaptation to fasting – the counter regulatory surge.

From the snake doctor himself, but of course you can read the actual study if it suits your views.

https://www.dietdoctor.com/does-fasting-burn-muscle

Either way, I will stop derailing a thread that actually had decent merit to begin with.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Azure

You do realize that this so-called snake-oil salesmen is more qualified to speak on this subject than you are, correct? And has actually worked with patients and researched fasting, insulin, weight loss and the myriad of other issues involved with the modern diet, correct?

And then he misleads people, like you, by saying clearly wrong things like a 30% reduction in calories will quickly result in a 30% reduction in BMR without mentioning that it actually resulted in a 25% reduction in weight prior. The exact purpose most people are trying to achieve with dieting. And then he makes sure to point out all the books he has for you buy. He has a motive to mislead.

Originally Posted by Azure

Though it is hilarious how the circle gang loves to jump on what I said. Basic fact is that a reduction in calories will equal a reduction in BMR short term, and especially long-term. Therefore for a healthy person, eating a healthy diet, one would think that your diet and the foods that you choose should be based around maintaining or increasing your BMR. This is where IF and Keto come in, and have been PROVEN to work. Unlike of course the standard cut calories to lose weight approach.

Losing weight by keto will also reduce BMR. That's just how it works. As long as you don't literally starve yourself, however you get to the calorie deficiency will be mostly alright. Sure, absolutely there's value in nutrition but you can get that from all sorts of diets.

Originally Posted by Azure

Also, a big part of calorie restriction over a long-period of time is the subsequent loss of muscle tissue. Which of course as anyone will know will play a major part in lowering your BMR as well since it is widely known that increased muscle mass means your BMR will be higher.

You keep confusing calorie restriction with starvation. There's a balance. Reduce your calories by 500 below your TDEE, losing a pound a week, and these negative side effects that result by reducing your calories by 1500 below the TDEE won't occur.

Originally Posted by Azure

Of course, then one would have to turn around and actually admit that fasting has been shown to help maintain muscle mass.

Actually, fasting has resulted in deaths of billions of people through the ages. That is of course if you do it long enough, let's say 50 days of fasting, you will die or at least be extremely malnourished. We just call that starvation. It's almost like you can't look at the extreme to analyze the 'normal' process. Do it in moderation, just like other forms of calorie restrictions (calorie in, calorie out), then it's beneficial.

Originally Posted by Azure

From the snake doctor himself, but of course you can read the actual study if it suits your views.

https://www.dietdoctor.com/does-fasting-burn-muscle

Fasting is great for some people, I've said it multiple times. I'll continue to advocate for those who want to lose weight that way. We're on the same page. I just know that the science behind the weight loss is the same as everyone else. And yes, there is other benefits for people who have diabetes etc. Again, didn't disagree. I don't know why you're so adamant that people who lose weight by calorie reduction are somehow wrong? Let people lose weight how they want without pseudoscience bull####.

[robbie111]

This is supposed to be a thread about Keto dieters supporting each other, for all the haters GTFO.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by robbie111

This is supposed to be a thread about Keto dieters supporting each other, for all the haters GTFO.

I think there was only 1 post on the whole thread that would qualify at "keto hating".

[Esoteric]

Fiancée and I have done Keto twice when we needed to drop some weight fast.
I lost 25 lbs the first time and 20 lbs the second time - first time was about 2.5 months, and the second just under 2 months.

It worked great for us in terms of shredding weight - we were strict on it, and enjoyed the food we ate. It also caused my blood pressure to increase, which is why we stopped it the second time.

I think Keto works wonders if you want to lose a bunch of weight (and quickly), but I personally don't want to continue with it for a long period of time. Too many carbs taste good. We're now trying to lose weight via exercise and eating healthy (with the odd cheat meal thrown in), which I think is a healthier, more sustainable way to lose weight.

[Firebot]

It never fails. Anytime a keto thread happens on a public forum for curious people just asking about what people eat and their experiences, it gets invaded by a number of skeptics who simply feel the need enter a thread unrelated to them to tell people their own beliefs on diets in general, and tries to dumb down everything to a calorie deficit.

There's no point to argue against those people who clearly have a closed mindset that this is a gimmick. It's almost like if they want to come to these threads to disrupt for the sole purpose of destroying the subject in principle.

No one brought so called 'pseudo science' (or actual science in most cases) until a few came in just to call the diet a gimmick, or post a brainless calorie intake deficit chart as if people are too dumb to understand the concept of diets.

Guess what? Running and exercise can get you in a weight loss process (aka calorie deficit)
Guess what? Having a restrictive diet can get you in a weight loss process (aka calorie deficit)
Guess what? Cutting sodas and solely eating veggies can get you in a weight loss process (aka calorie process)

You aren't telling anyone something new by blabbing about this.

The difference being, keto helps with hunger that tends to happen with most diets and making it easier to stick to for many. Those who have done it, and got past the initial setbacks and side effects, usually can attest to this being a personal experience.

Those who have also tried intermittent fasting, will attest that being hungry will happen but you will get in a fasted state where you don't even feel like eating. Whatever works for people, if gluten free diet gets someone tot heir goals and can live a lifestyle of it, all the power to them. If someone is running 5km everyday, eating a bowl of fruit and yogurt and a bowl of oatmeal, an gets to their goal and can live a lifestyle out of it, all the power to them.

This is a thread about keto dieting.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by #-3

... just don't feed me your BS.

Speaking of BS, I thought you announced your decision to piss off out of this thread after it was shown you didn’t know the difference between ketosis and ketoacidosis. No one held a gun to your head to start posting dogsh-t here, you’re eating the “BS” as you call it willingly. You have zero room to call anyone out for BS right now.

Azure, that BMR thing was bad. Really bad. It’s no wonder TheSutterDynasty ignores the posts that make him look misinformed and targets you, it’s easy pickings. You gotta be a little more critical of this stuff, there is way too much bad science out there. Just because it supports your position, it means nothing; it needs to support it for the right reasons.

[La Flames Fan]

I've been on keto for 3 years - mostly on it, but the odd time I'll go off like Christmas or Trips. After those times I can't wait to get back to it.

Here's my take: It works for me. I like what I eat. I eat healthier than I did before. I've lost 30 pounds and kept it off with no feeling of sacrifice. It's just how I eat now. I'm at a healthy BMI.

I'm pretty lazy with it, but that comes with knowledge of what I can and can't eat. My doctor is good with it.

There are great substitutes for the things that you "miss".

NutiLight - OH MY GOD, but don't go on a date if you've had some.
Lakeview Bakery Cinnamon/Cheese Bread - 5 net carbs per slice.
La Tortillas - 3 net carbs per tortilla.
Monk Fruit/Lakanto Sweetener - Great for keto baking.
Unbun Pizza Crusts - 3 net carbs per crust, best pizza crust I've had.
Cafe Wisk in Inglewood - Great place for soups, paninis, and fat bombs.

Keto, to me, is a way of eating not a diet. It's just my norm now. It keeps the weight off and I feel great. I play hockey twice a week with little to no energy deficit.

I tend to get my fats from oils, nuts, eggs, dairy, rather than high fat meats, but that's just my preference. I eat a good amount of veggies, chicken, fish, cauliflower rice, lettuce wrapped burgers lol, etc.

Keto changed my perception of food and my relationship with it. I'm really thankful for it. If it works for you, great, if it doesn't then don't do it

[ben voyonsdonc]

Hopefully we can agree to the following things:
1) Calories matter. Over-eating on a keto diet can make you fatter. It is not a miracle diet that makes calories non-existent. If you eat 3 steaks and two sticks of butter every single day, you likely won't lose weight on keto even though you may be below your net carb limit.
2) Some people really enjoy eating keto friendly food. That helps them stay on the diet when they may have quit other diets. Hence, they are more successful with losing weight than other people who don't like to try to meet keto macros.
3) Starvation dieting is bad for you and your metabolism. However, a 30% reduction in calories does not equal an immediate 30% reduction in BMR. If this was true, nobody would be able to lose weight. Your BMR slowly decreases as you lose weight which is why a person should re-evaluate their calorie consumption/exercise every so often as they lose weight.

I really don't think the OP was looking for a diet debate. I think he was looking to chat with others on keto to discuss recipes, things that work well/don't work well, and to seek motivation when times are tough. Can we let that happen here?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Would you feel the same way if posters came into an anti-vaxx thread to refute claims being presented though?

I have no problem with keto as I've been clear, in fact quite the opposite as I will actively support anyone trying to lose weight and feel better with keto, but when you got people posting completely wrong stuff like:

"The most important source of error is that reducing ‘Calories In’ leads to a reduction in metabolic rate, or ‘Calories Out’. A 30% reduction in calorie intake is quickly met with a decrease in basal metabolic rate of 30%. The net result is that no weight is lost."

Tough luck, expect to have that called out on. It's harmful as now you are telling people wrong information about their health.

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Speaking of BS, I thought you announced your decision to piss off out of this thread after it was shown you didn’t know the difference between ketosis and ketoacidosis. No one held a gun to your head to start posting dogsh-t here, you’re eating the “BS” as you call it willingly. You have zero room to call anyone out for BS right now.

Azure, that BMR thing was bad. Really bad. It’s no wonder TheSutterDynasty ignores the posts that make him look misinformed and targets you, it’s easy pickings. You gotta be a little more critical of this stuff, there is way too much bad science out there. Just because it supports your position, it means nothing; it needs to support it for the right reasons.

Ooook Torque, you clearly wanna talk about some stuff. What would you like to revisit? Although you should really read the review first as that's a summary of current evidence and I'll reference it a lot.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Esoteric

It worked great for us in terms of shredding weight - we were strict on it, and enjoyed the food we ate. It also caused my blood pressure to increase, which is why we stopped it the second time.

is this common with keto?

[Esoteric]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

is this common with keto?

For some people it increases BP, others you see a decrease.
We were eating a lot of processed food (pepperoni sticks) for snacks, which didn't help it. It made it easier to find snacks, but they weren't great for the heart health.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

Ooook Torque, you clearly wanna talk about some stuff. What would you like to revisit? Although you should really read the review first as that's a summary of current evidence and I'll reference it a lot.

Oh please, I've called you out twice already. If you're still hanging your hat on that one review that only talks about low-carb interventions for energy restriction, then there's nothing to talk about because you're not even coming to the table. You haven't addressed that low-carb has positive outcomes for other conditions, and -- no, baselessly asserting that those benefits would come with weight loss anyway is not an argument. Both blankall and I posted evidence for those. You completely flubbed with your one-liner reply about the thermic effect of protein because you missed the point.

Like I said, I think most people in this thread would be happy to just unsubscribe from your tripe contributions in this thread because they add nothing.

[TheSutterDynasty]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Oh please, I've called you out twice already. If you're still hanging your hat on that one review that only talks about low-carb interventions for energy restriction, then there's nothing to talk about because you're not even coming to the table. You haven't addressed that low-carb has positive outcomes for other conditions, and -- no, baselessly asserting that those benefits would come with weight loss anyway is not an argument. Both blankall and I posted evidence for those. You completely flubbed with your one-liner reply about the thermic effect of protein because you missed the point.

Like I said, I think most people in this thread would be happy to just unsubscribe from your tripe contributions in this thread because they add nothing.

Someone sounds like they're a little low in the blood sugar department. Maybe mix in some veggies?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28455679

Literally every benefit you listed for keto diets are present with weight loss regardless of method.

Almost all of the studies you linked were talked about in the review. Once again, that's what a review is. It assesses the quality of all the current studies, pools and analyzes the data, and arrives at best evidence conclusions. Which, again, were the following.

Collected from "key points":

Originally Posted by The article you still haven't read

Longer-term (>6 months) results suggest that low-CHO and very-low-CHO diets may result in weight loss that is equivalent to that of HCLF diets.

Very-low-CHO diets are difficult to maintain and are not clearly superior for weight loss compared with diets that allow a higher amount of CHO in adults with overweight and obesity with or without diabetes.

Long-term participation in any weight loss intervention is difficult, but adherence to the assigned macronutrient distribution (ie, CHO, protein, and fat) is lower with low-CHO and, especially, very-low-CHO diets

All weight loss interventions using CHO-restriction appear to result in greater loss of lean body mass (LBM) compared with more macronutrient balanced hypocaloric diets.

Low-CHO diets resulted in a reduction in the use of diabetes medications, and reductions in the use of diabetes medications were achieved at CHO intake levels that do not induce ketosis.

Weight loss lowers CRP. However, current evidence does not support a difference between low-CHO and very-low-CHO diets compared with high-CHO, low-fat diets on the effects on CRP.

Research suggests unfavorable gut microbiota changes and fecal metabolite shifts associated with low-CHO and very-low-CHO diets; however, the clinical significance of these changes is unknown.

For long-term weight maintenance and CV health, it is recommended to gradually increase CHO intake. An emphasis should be placed on CHO foods associated with reduced cardiometabolic risk, including vegetables, fruits, whole grains, and legumes.

There it is all laid out on a pretty platter for you. But you really should read the paper to know why they came to these conclusions.

You could also just sit there covering your ears because god forbid your miracle diet isn't quite as miraculous as you think. Again I ask, what is your stake in the game here? Do you make a living off selling keto? There's no reason to be so ignorant about the subject.

[White Out 403]

Well, a perfectly nice thread about people trying to better themselves and find support totally derailed by petty arguing. Sad.

[JohnnyBeGood]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Over the past couple years I packed on some pounds, I have always been on the thin side and I had developed a pretty big pot belly. Too much bad snacking and fast food. So at the beginning of October I went keto, limiting my carbs to 20g a day. Fast forward to today and much of the pot belly is gone although the weight came off my face and other areas first. I have lost 35 pounds. I have also introduced intermittent fasting to my strategy. Still have a bit of stubborn belly fat I am hoping to eliminate by the time the nice weather roles around. Halloween sucked. Thanksgiving sucked. Christmas...ya that sucked too. So thought I would make an update support thread for those on this journey. Feel free to share meal plans, results, and just general griping about others enjoying their treats when you can't.

By way of maybe putting this thread back on the rails, I want to share some keto success: in Aug 2019 I was diabetic, taking 5x500mg metformin per day plus another drug. A1C was 8.5, which is right in the 'Dangerous' range, and so I started a keto diet (with Doctor's supervision) that month.

3 months later, I was off of my last metformin (stopped the diamicron in the first month) and now, 6 months later, I just got my latest A1C test results for the last 3 drug-free months: I scored a 5.6 which is NORMAL!! That is to say I now don't have symptoms of diabetes, and not even pre-diabetes.

For me, keto has been a path to good health and will continue to be a way of life. Turns out that I'm just bad at metabolising carbs - and the solution to that problem was eventually found in nutrition, not medication.

Plenty of interesting/useful info here and also here for people who are interested in the health aspects of low carb, high fat nutrition. Thanks for this thread, I am happy to support and share with others who are interested in what keto might do for a person.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

Well, a perfectly nice thread about people trying to better themselves and find support totally derailed by petty arguing. Sad.

People try all kinds of things to better themselves. Should they only hear the views of confederates, or maybe also listen to other perspectives in the search for deeper truth?

Having said that, discussion should also be held in good faith and without rudeness.

[Nyah]

Bumping this thread as I'm wondering if any of you who have tried keto have used any apps to help you track your meals and macros? We're going to give this a try for the first time pretty soon and I want to be prepared

Also any tips and tricks for a first timer?

[Royle9]

Did keto for a year and lost close to 80lbs it was crazy good.
Healthy and DR was involved from the get go. Few years later though I had a set back from the higher fat foods and had to get my gal-bladder out.

No way to say for sure keto caused it but I’m confident it didn’t help.

Great diet though, it works and I enjoyed it.