[Trade] Devils trade Blake Coleman to Tampa for 2020 1st (VAN) and Nolan Foote

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Yeah that career high pace of 45 points is sure comparable to former Hart trophy winner Taylor Hall.

This is a great trade for the Devils IMO.

Coleman makes sense for Tampa due to his low cap hit but moving JT Miller (who is the better player IMO) for a 1st and a 3rd. Then moving that first, plus last years first in Nolan Foote who has had a good draft plus 1 season for a lesser player than what you moved out in the first place does not make much sense to me.

I like Coleman but it’s an overpay. Last off-season if they had moved JT Miller and their 2019 First for Blake Coleman and a Third round pick I think we’d all have been wondering what Tampa was smoking.

Well Tampa will get more goals out of Coleman next year than Arizona will out of Hall when he’s gone to another team by UFA.

It makes a ton of sense. They needed cap space before the season so sent out Miller to clear $5.25M. Now they’re loading up for a Cup run. Coleman’s low cap hit helps give them room to add more this deadline.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Yeah that career high pace of 45 points is sure comparable to former Hart trophy winner Taylor Hall.

This is a great trade for the Devils IMO.

Coleman makes sense for Tampa due to his low cap hit but moving JT Miller (who is the better player IMO) for a 1st and a 3rd. Then moving that first, plus last years first in Nolan Foote who has had a good draft plus 1 season for a lesser player than what you moved out in the first place does not make much sense to me.

I like Coleman but it’s an overpay. Last off-season if they had moved JT Miller and their 2019 First for Blake Coleman and a Third round pick I think we’d all have been wondering what Tampa was smoking.

The fact that Coleman has another year at $1.8 million is pretty big for Tampa who has a finite window to take advantage of having the best team in hockey.

[kyuss275]

Way to drive prices up Tampa. I like Coleman, but 2 firsts for him is to high.

Have to think this pretty much takes flames out of getting a top 6 forward with term. Didn't mind if flames were going to add a piece but not at these prices. If flames are in a playoff spot come deadline then they should just stand pat, unless prices go way down. If they are out of playoff spot come deadline, then they should sell as much as they can if prices are sky high.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Well Tampa will get more goals out of Coleman next year than Arizona will out of Hall when he’s gone to another team by UFA.

It makes a ton of sense. They needed cap space before the season so sent out Miller to clear $5.25M. Now they’re loading up for a Cup run. Coleman’s low cap hit helps give them room to add more this deadline.

In no world does giving up 2 firsts for Blake Coleman make sense.

If the Flames had moved Pelletier and their first for this guy then Flames fans would be calling for Trelivings head.

Like he’s a good 200ft player on a great contract but that’s a huge price to pay. Rarely see two firsts (or first and recent first who’s still a top prospect) moved in a deal anymore.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

In no world does giving up 2 firsts for Blake Coleman make sense.

If the Flames had moved Pelletier and their first for this guy then Flames fans would be calling for Trelivings head.

Like he’s a good 200ft player on a great contract but that’s a huge price to pay. Rarely see two firsts (or first and recent first who’s still a top prospect) moved in a deal anymore.

I don't agree, and comparing the lightning to the flames in this scenario is a joke.

This is arguably less than what the flames gave up for Hamonic, and it's from a team who are something like 26-6 since Christmas who are the reigning presidents trophy winner.

This is the kind of move contending teams SHOULD make.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I don't agree, and comparing the lightning to the flames in this scenario is a joke.

This is arguably less than what the flames gave up for Hamonic, and it's from a team who are something like 26-6 since Christmas who are the reigning presidents trophy winner.

This is the kind of move contending teams SHOULD make.

I agree the Bolts and Flames aren't in the same stratosphere, I also agree it's the type of trade a team like the Bolts should be making, but I think they should be able to get a better player for the price they paid, or should have paid less for the player they did get.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I don't agree, and comparing the lightning to the flames in this scenario is a joke.

This is arguably less than what the flames gave up for Hamonic, and it's from a team who are something like 26-6 since Christmas who are the reigning presidents trophy winner.

This is the kind of move contending teams SHOULD make.

Flames got Hamonic for 3 playoff runs though and his salary is only twice as much.

Coleman is a guy on pace for 45 points and 30 goals this year and he gets 1.8 million. Right now it appears that the Bolts gave up a 27th overall pick and a 19th overall pick if the standings stay as they are today.

I wonder if you could trade a 27th overall pick, a 116th overall pick and a 19th overall pick for a 13th, 43rd overall pick and a 57th overall pick. You probably could.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I agree the Bolts and Flames aren't in the same stratosphere, I also agree it's the type of trade a team like the Bolts should be making, but I think they should be able to get a better player for the price they paid, or should have paid less for the player they did get.

'should' is all well and nice, but the reality is it takes two to tango and time is running out.

Who would you get for 2 yrs at that value (even assuming 50% retention)? Lots of possible options, but very few who are actually likely to be available at that price or lower.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

My immediate reaction was, "that's a lot to pay for 1.5 years of Blake Coleman"... because it's not like they're going to be able to re-sign him after next season. Or if they do, they'll need to let someone of equivalent value walk to do it, so it's a wash. Meanwhile Nolan Foote is going to be in the NHL next year, probably, and he'll cost even less against the cap. Why not just go that route? Sure, I guess there's the uncertainty about a rookie being a good contributor at this level when Coleman already is, but there's also uncertainty about a guy producing on a basement dweller being able to do something similar on the best team in the NHL.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Wasn't there a rumour in the summer the Flames wanted Coleman. Most were saying no thanks we have enough Coleman's already. He just landed 2 firsts? Devils did very well. If that the price the Flames need to sell.

What!!! The Flames have not any players like Coleman. He is sort of like Hathaway except he has back to back 20 goal seasons and plays 17 Minutes a game. I guess that the closest comparable to Coleman on the Flames is Tkachuk.


Coleman has close to twice the hits/60 at over 10.2 as compared to Tkachuk"s 5.11

This year he has 20 Non-pp goals and 28 non-pp points compares well with Tkachuk's 14 non-pp goals and 32 non-pp pts


He is astronomically better value at 1.8 M rather than Tkachuk's 7 M cap hit.


The Bolts are playing Moneyball with this trade.... getting a 5M cap value for 1.8

Only downside is Glencross (similar type player) having his last good season as a 29 year old.

TB not likely to sign him as a UFA.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

My immediate reaction was, "that's a lot to pay for 1.5 years of Blake Coleman"... because it's not like they're going to be able to re-sign him after next season. Or if they do, they'll need to let someone of equivalent value walk to do it, so it's a wash. Meanwhile Nolan Foote is going to be in the NHL next year, probably, and he'll cost even less against the cap. Why not just go that route? Sure, I guess there's the uncertainty about a rookie being a good contributor at this level when Coleman already is, but there's also uncertainty about a guy producing on a basement dweller being able to do something similar on the best team in the NHL.

So did the Flames make a huge error in picking Pelltier one spot ahead of Foote?

Players picked outside of the top 10 are pretty darn good if they see the NHL in year 3 after they are drafted

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

I don't think it's a huge error. Pelletier has looked pretty good this season as well. Foote is over 6 feet and 200 lbs... Pelletier is not that. It isn't too surprising if it takes the smaller guy longer before he's ready for the NHL.

Basically, I agree philosophically with what the Bolts are trying to do - acquire good depth players who can fill out your lineup on reasonable deals with a little term, so you can afford the inevitable raises guys like Cirelli and Sergachev will get in the offseason and extend your window without having to ship out major pieces (Miller notwithstanding - he wasn't a major piece at the time he was dealt). But the actual best way to be able to do that is to have guys on ELCs in your lineup. While they're there, they cost almost nothing. If they perform okay, but don't "wow" anyone, well, they're RFAs and can be re-signed for less than what their market value would be otherwise. if they do "wow" people, then they become valuable trade assets.

Basically, Foote is a higher risk, higher reward bet than Coleman is, and in a vacuum, you could see the logic in either choice, and in the Lightning's situation you might want to lean towards the safer route, which is Coleman (in that you know for sure he's an NHL player who can at minimum chip in the occasional goal). But given that the cost of taking that route is a 1st round pick and losing the player after a year and a half (as opposed to at least three, for Foote's ELC), I would have rolled the dice on Foote being able to fill that depth spot.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I also don't think Foote will be in the NHL next year. He's probably 2 years away minimum.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

In no world does giving up 2 firsts for Blake Coleman make sense.

If the Flames had moved Pelletier and their first for this guy then Flames fans would be calling for Trelivings head.

Like he’s a good 200ft player on a great contract but that’s a huge price to pay. Rarely see two firsts (or first and recent first who’s still a top prospect) moved in a deal anymore.

It absolutely makes sense. Tampa is contending and getting the guy they want and can help push them over the top is worth overpaying.

It makes absolutely no sense for the Flames to pay that price, and is why we didn’t.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I don't agree, and comparing the lightning to the flames in this scenario is a joke.

This is arguably less than what the flames gave up for Hamonic, and it's from a team who are something like 26-6 since Christmas who are the reigning presidents trophy winner.

This is the kind of move contending teams SHOULD make.

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

It absolutely makes sense. Tampa is contending and getting the guy they want and can help push them over the top is worth overpaying.

It makes absolutely no sense for the Flames to pay that price, and is why we didn’t.

The Hamonic trade was crap too, I wasn't a fan of that at the time it happened.

Tampa is fine to give up the assets. But Foote and the Vancouver first should have been able to get them more than Blake Coleman. I don't think he's a top 6 forward for them, and that's a ton to pay for a third liner. He will make an elite shutdown line paired with Cirelli though so I like it for Tampa from that perspective.

He's a good 200ft player, and he will help them, but it's an over-payment for a 0.5 ppg energy guy that's having a good shooting percentage year that's inflating his goal total.

Those assets for Tampa would have been better suited to help shore up their defense as well, which is a bigger area of need than a third line forward for them IMO, especially going into next year with only a couple d-men signed.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Yeah that career high pace of 45 points is sure comparable to former Hart trophy winner Taylor Hall.

This is a great trade for the Devils IMO.

Coleman makes sense for Tampa due to his low cap hit but moving JT Miller (who is the better player IMO) for a 1st and a 3rd. Then moving that first, plus last years first in Nolan Foote who has had a good draft plus 1 season for a lesser player than what you moved out in the first place does not make much sense to me.

I like Coleman but it’s an overpay. Last off-season if they had moved JT Miller and their 2019 First for Blake Coleman and a Third round pick I think we’d all have been wondering what Tampa was smoking.

It makes a lot more sense when you compare Coleman's cap hit to JT Miller's and then look at TB's salary cap issues last summer.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

The Hamonic trade was crap too, I wasn't a fan of that at the time it happened.

Tampa is fine to give up the assets. But Foote and the Vancouver first should have been able to get them more than Blake Coleman. I don't think he's a top 6 forward for them, and that's a ton to pay for a third liner.

He's a good 200ft player, and he will help them, but it's an over-payment for a 0.5 ppg energy guy that's having a good shooting percentage year that's inflating his goal total.

Those assets for Tampa would have been better suited to help shore up their defense as well, which is a bigger area of need than a third line forward for them IMO.

I think your value discrepancy is due to significantly undervaluing the cap hit to production ratio.

The highest priority value a contending team can have is AAV. Acquiring a 30 goal scorer making 200k more than Janko is worth dealing a prospect and a pick for a team completely uninterested in adding pre-apex players to their lineup if it means a downgrade in quality.

This is probably the last season they can keep the band together with so many significant expiring and long term deals, so the value of the high performance low aav is even more pronounced.

For a team like Tampa, the value of the 1st is miniscule. If they want to add more 1st round picks, they will have no shortage of teams willing to pony up for any number of their players, much like how they got the 1st they just moved in the first place. They still have all their major picks for the next 3 years. They still have 8 picks in this coming draft. They have 9 picks in 2021.

A 1st for the flames is a big deal because they waste picks on garbage. It's not a big deal for Tampa because they don't.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

It makes a lot more sense when you compare Coleman's cap hit to JT Miller's and then look at TB's salary cap issues last summer.

I get he's on a great contract...but even then though.

Doesn't it feel like a 1st and a 2nd/3rd should have been enough for Coleman even when taking that contract into consideration. A first and a top prospect is more than Mark Stone got in return (and they had pretty much agreed to extension before that deal was made).

The only players that got a single first round pick last year at the deadline were Hayes, Muzzin, Montour. Muzzin and Montour were also guys that had multiple years left, so not purely a rental.

Good player, I think he fits that roster well, but it was a big over-payment IMO.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

This is probably the last season they can keep the band together with so many significant expiring and long term deals,

This is actually kinda the last year they can break the band apart. Everyone making more than 1.8M who is eligible for one has a full NTC for the next 1.5 years (when a few become M-NTC)...Killorn is the lone exception; his 4.5M turns into a 16 team trade clause this summer, as Kucherov NMC kicks in.

Point and Sergachev are the only other big pieces they can move. Vasilevsky's NMC also doesn't start until summer after next...hard to see anything happening there, though.