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Old 03-20-2019, 03:50 PM   #241
Stealth22
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And maybe they did, who knows? But I remember reading somewhere (and I don't have anything to back this up) that Lion Air's maintenance practices have been under scrutiny, so perhaps the pilots logged the defect, and it wasn't acted on in time.

Like I said, there are so many variables that go into this kind of thing, it's not even funny. Even if both crashes are attributed to the same root cause, both investigations are going to uncover various other things that are unique to each incident.
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Old 03-20-2019, 05:50 PM   #242
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My flight in early July from Halifax to Iceland is supposed to be on a 737 MAX 8. I'd be okay if the plane gets changed.
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Old 03-20-2019, 05:54 PM   #243
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My flight in early July from Halifax to Iceland is supposed to be on a 737 MAX 8. I'd be okay if the plane gets changed.
I can guarantee even if they started flying tomorrow again, every pilot and their dog will know how to disable the trim and MCAS.
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Old 03-20-2019, 05:56 PM   #244
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I can guarantee even if they started flying tomorrow again, every pilot and their dog will know how to disable the trim and MCAS.
I'll run in the cockpit and do it myself if I have to. THESE 2 switches RIGHT HERE!
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Old 03-20-2019, 07:10 PM   #245
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I will say that assuming the malfunction behind both accidents is the MCAS as it appears, the good news is that the fix is very doable.

Have it rely on both AOA sensors, with a comparator in order to identify bad data. And limit pitch trim to one 2.5 unit correction, so that it doesn’t continue to reset and drive further trim inputs.

And I believe that is the fix that was already being developed by Boeing, so hopefully it won’t take too long. And at that point there really shouldn’t be any reason to be concerned about the safety of the MAX series.
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Old 03-20-2019, 07:31 PM   #246
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I'm more concerned with what I've learned about the airline industry in other countries, like letting a co-pilot fly commercially with 200 hours, while being trained by a guy with 8000.



Or Boeing deciding that telling pilots of this simple procedure was deemed "information overload", when in reality they didn't want to sell a plane that would require any additional training, as it would increase costs for customers.


I don't really have any concern about the aircraft if the fix the "IF sensor malfunction THEN autocrash" feature.
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Old 03-20-2019, 07:43 PM   #247
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I assume proper procedure would have been for the first flight pilots to log a defect in the maintenance log book, then the broken sensor should have been dealt with before the plane could fly again. There are so many layers of failure here it's almost a farce.
They did replace the sensor.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...QpvLGA82-Jvtxu


Sounds like Southwest has replaced a couple as well.

The real failure here is Boeing.
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Old 03-20-2019, 07:53 PM   #248
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My flight in early July from Halifax to Iceland is supposed to be on a 737 MAX 8. I'd be okay if the plane gets changed.
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Old 03-21-2019, 08:10 AM   #249
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https://twitter.com/user/status/1108697831722885120

https://twitter.com/bentaub91/status...722885120?s=21
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Old 03-21-2019, 08:21 AM   #250
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When "don't crash" is an optional feature...
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Old 03-21-2019, 09:44 AM   #251
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Interesting to see how this ripples through the schedule. Was booked on YYC-LAX on westjet for today. Got an email 2 days ago saying the flight was cancelled and was re-routed YYC-YVR on Friday, and YVR-LAX on Saturday. Was a bit annoyed they said it was cancelled, as the rest of my family on the same flight (purchased separately) weren't bumped... Ended up flying YYC-SAN yesterday.

I'm a bit concerned about the return trip out of Palm Springs next week, as it's an air canada flight that I believe was scheduled for Max.
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Old 03-21-2019, 09:55 AM   #252
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You better call AC and check on that PSP flight, they stated the seasonal flights were ending early and they are operating a A319 on the route on April 2, 3, and 22.
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Old 03-21-2019, 01:37 PM   #253
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According to ctv (already posted earlier):

Air Canada, WestJet purchased safety option reportedly missing on crashed planes

Canada's two largest airlines have at least one of the optional safety features on their Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft that were reportedly lacking on the jets that crashed in Ethiopia and Indonesia.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/beta.ctv...1_4346085.html
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Old 03-21-2019, 01:43 PM   #254
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Am I the only one who thinks a safety feature shouldn't be optional? Or is it far more complex than that?
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Old 03-21-2019, 01:45 PM   #255
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It sounds super sketchy, but think of all the optional safety measures in cars that really ought to be standard (full airbags, etc)
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Old 03-21-2019, 01:47 PM   #256
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I would love to see the sale brochure for the Max-8:

Available Options:
Leather Seats
Rear Seat Back Entertainment System
Upgraded Carpeting
No Crash Trim Disengagement System
Ambient LED Lighting
Breville Latte Machine
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Old 03-21-2019, 02:48 PM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stampsx2 View Post
According to ctv (already posted earlier):

Air Canada, WestJet purchased safety option reportedly missing on crashed planes

Canada's two largest airlines have at least one of the optional safety features on their Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft that were reportedly lacking on the jets that crashed in Ethiopia and Indonesia.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/beta.ctv...1_4346085.html

So Air Canada has both safety features, WestJet just has the AoA disagreement indicator but not the AoA indicator.

While I never flew a plane with one, I've heard an Angle of Attack indicator is a great thing to have.
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Old 03-21-2019, 02:51 PM   #258
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The Angle of Attack indicator sounds like something you would need for initiating your trench run on the Death Star.
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Old 03-21-2019, 03:00 PM   #259
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I wonder if having that light and indicator would have made much difference though? They may have considered hey, this sensor must be giving a false reading, but without knowing about MCAS, would that warning light have given them the info the needed to save the plane? I'm not sure it would have changed the outcome.
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Old 03-21-2019, 05:18 PM   #260
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That tweet is somewhat misleading, IMO. As far as I know, all 737 MAX operators were briefed on MCAS after the Lion Air crash, not just the ones that purchased the AoA indicators and/or AoA disagree lights.

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I wonder if having that light and indicator would have made much difference though? They may have considered hey, this sensor must be giving a false reading, but without knowing about MCAS, would that warning light have given them the info the needed to save the plane? I'm not sure it would have changed the outcome.
No way to know, really.

Maybe in the case of ET302 (because Ethiopian Airlines claims that their pilots were briefed and trained on MCAS) the AoA disagree light might have made a difference, but given that the flight crew's experience has been called into question, it's hard to say that for sure.

That also assumes that a faulty AoA sensor or MCAS receiving erroneous AoA data is what caused ET302 to crash. While that's definitely the working theory, it hasn't been officially established as the cause.

But you're right, in the case of Lion Air, if they didn't know that MCAS even existed, I don't know if it would have made any difference. Unless the disagree light would make them clue into the fact that the trim wheel was spinning over and over (easy to miss in the heat of the moment, and the trim wheel spins a lot even in normal flight).

Like I said, there's no way to know. But one thing you can be reasonably certain of is that when the MAX does fly again, every pilot and their dog is going to know about MCAS, and if they ever see the "AoA disagree" light come on, they're instantly going to check the stabilizer trim.
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