unethical business experience *LONG READ*

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Because they're still left with the bad review, the drag on their star rating and reviews are totally unmoderated. Plus, it's there forever with no expiration date and no way to move on past it. It's understandable for a company to be annoyed with bad reviews when they're unjust.

We don't know if this review is just. What we do know is FG ended up with exactly what he paid for and left them a bad review anyway. That would piss anybody off.

The way I read it was that the company delivered the hot tub in a less than agreed or expected condition. Dirty and inoperable aren't likely "exactly what he paid for"... No one buys a hot tub that doesn't work (unless it was an as-is deal, but that doesn't sound like the case here).

Yes, it was a used 'tub, but it seems like a pretty basic expectation that it should be clean and working. To me, it seems like the seller was trying to pass the buck on reconditioning and FG wasn't having it.

Going back to your car analogy, I think it's more like if you buy a used car and the seller represents that the car will be freshly detailed and fully serviced prior to delivery, and you buy it on that basis. If the car shows up filthy with bald tires and a CEL, you'd probably want them to remedy those items and might be inclined to leave a bad review to warn others about the misrepresentation and resultant aggravation of dealing with it.

[Ashasx]

Sometimes bad businesses deserve bad reviews. It's hilarious that this has become another "well from the business's perspective..." thread when they altered a warranty document after it had already been signed.

This is a great review for anyone potentially looking at this business.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

And if the owner did swear and yell at him on the phone, in addition to the doctored contract, I'd be keeping the review up unless I got an apology.

FG isn't a victim here. He attacked the business owner with his #### review and is now upset the business owner is fighting back. He threw the first punch.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Sliver

FG isn't a victim here. He attacked the business owner with his #### review and is now upset the business owner is fighting back. He threw the first punch.

leaving a bad review for bad service vs altering a signed contract


hmmmmm

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Sliver

FG isn't a victim here. He attacked the business owner with his #### review and is now upset the business owner is fighting back. He threw the first punch.

WTF. 3/5 is hardly a bad review.

You really need to gain some perspective.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by you&me

The way I read it was that the company delivered the hot tub in a less than agreed or expected condition. Dirty and inoperable aren't likely "exactly what he paid for"... No one buys a hot tub that doesn't work (unless it was an as-is deal, but that doesn't sound like the case here).

Yes, it was a used 'tub, but it seems like a pretty basic expectation that it should be clean and working. To me, it seems like the seller was trying to pass the buck on reconditioning and FG wasn't having it.

Going back to your car analogy, I think it's more like if you buy a used car and the seller represents that the car will be freshly detailed and fully serviced prior to delivery, and you buy it on that basis. If the car shows up filthy with bald tires and a CEL, you'd probably want them to remedy those items and might be inclined to leave a bad review to warn others about the misrepresentation and resultant aggravation of dealing with it.

Okay, but I don't believe FG is representing all the facts objectively. I mean, you guys think I'm biased...he's as biased as it gets on this. He's one of the affected parties. I'm the blind lady statute thing of justice compared to him.

But say this thing slipped out the door and was delivered unclean when it should have been clean...okay, sorry. We made a mistake. We'll clean it now. They did. They should get a thank you, not a mark of 60% for all to see.

They're some BS here and you guys have broken BS detectors if you're not seeing it.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Okay, but I don't believe FG is representing all the facts objectively. I mean, you guys think I'm biased...he's as biased as it gets on this. He's one of the affected parties. I'm the blind lady statute thing of justice compared to him.

... uh...

FG isn't a victim here. He attacked the business owner with his #### review and is now upset the business owner is fighting back. He threw the first punch.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Shazam

WTF. 3/5 is hardly a bad review.

You really need to gain some perspective.

It is. Anything less than 5 is a bad review.

It's important to note that because if you think you're doing a business a favour by leaving a 3- or 4-star review, you are not. They prefer you not review them at all if that' what you're going to leave.

Seriously, ask any business if they rather have a 3-star review from you or no review at all. Every single one of them will tell you no review is better. That should give you some fataing perspective.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

... uh...

yeah. what?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Shazam

WTF. 3/5 is hardly a bad review.

You really need to gain some perspective.

For a small business, 3/5 reviews are extremely damaging. With the way current algorithms work, anything less than a 5/5 is going to cost a small business a lot of opportunities. If you guys are casually giving 3/5s, you should really reconsider what you're doing and the impact a review like that has.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I'm skeptical of the story. I have yet to receive a bad review that is truthful with literally one exception.

Only one bad review has ever been a valid complaint? I am sure you strive for perfection in managing your business, but you certainly come across as someone who isn't going to take criticism well either. Sure, some people are never going to be happy, but it sure seems possible that some customer may not have got the experience they expected.

Reviews become completely useless if everyone only leaves positive feedback. Potential customers can think for themselves is a complaint is valid or concerning.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Sliver

It is. Anything less than 5 is a bad review.

It's important to note that because if you think you're doing a business a favour by leaving a 3- or 4-star review, you are not.

A 3 star review is a bad review, because that's 60/100 effectively. That should not be given unless the business you're reviewing fell short in some material, important way. A 4 star review is a "good but not perfect" review, and usually includes some information about what the place could have done better that is valuable to the people who the reviews are for - prospective customers.

You seem to have somehow come to the conclusion that the reviews are supposed to be a "favour to the business". They aren't. They're intended to educate the customers. Some of them are misleading, but a 3 star review that sets out exactly what was disappointing is of value to me in deciding whether to use your business.

I just booked a hotel for a trip I'm going on this week (at least I hope so; damn covid tests have to be passed first). The hotel has generally good reviews, but I know exactly what to expect going in because in addition to the 5 star reviews, there are a bunch of 3 and 4 star reviews that say very similar things about what is and isn't in the rooms, what features of the hotel haven't been completed, and so on and so forth. I don't give a flying #### if those reviews are a "favour to the business" that they would prefer someone had not left - they helped me make an informed decision.

Incidentally, I ignored the "1 star - worst service I ever had" reviews, because those provided me with no information, just as I did the "5 stars - best service I ever had" ones. I don't know, maybe I'm a weird consumer and most people don't use google reviews the way I do to make decisions about how to spend my money, but I kind of think my process is probably pretty typical.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by blankall

For a small business, 3/5 reviews are extremely damaging. With the way current algorithms work, anything less than a 5/5 is going to cost a small business a lot of opportunities. If you guys are casually giving 3/5s, you should really reconsider what you're doing and the impact a review like that has.

It probably depends on the type of business. If it's a simple product that is either good or bad, then sure. Something like a restaurant in my eyes has to be pretty top notch to get all 5 star reviews. I've certainly seen lots of positive 4 star reviews for restaurants that are good, but not world class restaurants.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

A 3 star review is a bad review, because that's 60/100 effectively. That should not be given unless the business you're reviewing fell short in some material, important way. A 4 star review is a "good but not perfect" review, and usually includes some information about what the place could have done better that is valuable to the people who the reviews are for - prospective customers.

You seem to have somehow come to the conclusion that the reviews are supposed to be a "favour to the business". They aren't. They're intended to educate the customers. Some of them are misleading, but a 3 star review that sets out exactly what was disappointing is of value to me in deciding whether to use your business.

I just booked a hotel for a trip I'm going on this week (at least I hope so; damn covid tests have to be passed first). The hotel has generally good reviews, but I know exactly what to expect going in because in addition to the 5 star reviews, there are a bunch of 3 and 4 star reviews that say very similar things about what is and isn't in the rooms, what features of the hotel haven't been completed, and so on and so forth. I don't give a flying #### if those reviews are a "favour to the business" that they would prefer someone had not left - they helped me make an informed decision.

Incidentally, I ignored the "1 star - worst service I ever had" reviews, because those provided me with no information, just as I did the "5 stars - best service I ever had" ones. I don't know, maybe I'm a weird consumer and most people don't use google reviews the way I do to make decisions about how to spend my money, but I kind of think my process is probably pretty typical.

My problem is less that ratings are supposed to be a favour to the business and more that the general public is not qualified to leave reviews and permanently brand businesses based on whim, anger, misunderstandings, entitled expectations, dishonesty, spite, revenge, stupidity, etc. Until a site comes along with a fair moderation process for ratings - or even gives the business the ability to shed all ratings after six months or a year - then I'll hate them and rail against them.

Glad you see a 3 rating is a bad rating.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Sliver

It is. Anything less than 5 is a bad review.

It's important to note that because if you think you're doing a business a favour by leaving a 3- or 4-star review, you are not. They prefer you not review them at all if that' what you're going to leave.

Seriously, ask any business if they rather have a 3-star review from you or no review at all. Every single one of them will tell you no review is better. That should give you some fataing perspective.

This is the "gold stars and participation awards for all" mentality.

If the business wanted 5 stars, they should have delivered a clean and working hot tub.

Not clean? Less than 5... Not working? Less again. And this all comes before the shady intimidation and probable fraudulent contract altering. These aren't minor inconveniences or one-offs; it's a series of significant substandard deliveries from the company, so I don't see why it's so hard to consider that maybe FG just had the misfortune of choosing a ####ty vendor...

[blankall]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

It probably depends on the type of business. If it's a simple product that is either good or bad, then sure. Something like a restaurant in my eyes has to be pretty top notch to get all 5 star reviews. I've certainly seen lots of positive 4 star reviews for restaurants that are good, but not world class restaurants.

I think most people understand that a lot of restaurant customers are totally unreasonable, so won't totally discount a restaurant based on a few bad reviews.

For most businesses starting out, if you have even 1-2 reviews with 3 or less, it's a pretty massive hurdle to overcome. A 3/5 doesn't sound bad objectively, but IMO should not be given out casually. This is just the reality of modern business, which is entirely dependent on google clout.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

Only one bad review has ever been a valid complaint? I am sure you strive for perfection in managing your business, but you certainly come across as someone who isn't going to take criticism well either. Sure, some people are never going to be happy, but it sure seems possible that some customer may not have got the experience they expected.

Reviews become completely useless if everyone only leaves positive feedback. Potential customers can think for themselves is a complaint is valid or concerning.

Yes, of course I'll come out guns fully blazing when I get a bad review unless it's truthful. The truthful bad review I did get I apologized, acknowledged the mistake we made and detailed what we had now changed to prevent it from happening to anybody else. It warranted a proper apology.

Do I - six years later - deserve to have that one-star rating because one of my employees told him we had something in stock that was gone when he came to pick it up? No, I don't. That one star I'm stuck with years later over one tiny mistake when we have corrected the problem is ridiculous for my business to be saddled with. Will the guy take it down? Nope, he feels entitled to continue warning people away from us all these years later for one little mistake that we owned up to, apologized for and took corrective action. That bothers me as it would anybody else.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by you&me

This is the "gold stars and participation awards for all" mentality.

If the business wanted 5 stars, they should have delivered a clean and working hot tub.

Not clean? Less than 5... Not working? Less again. And this all comes before the shady intimidation and probable fraudulent contract altering. These aren't minor inconveniences or one-offs; it's a series of significant substandard deliveries from the company, so I don't see why it's so hard to consider that maybe FG just had the misfortune of choosing a ####ty vendor...

He can just not write a review based on his one experience. I don't agree he has the right or responsibility to spray paint a "this place sucks" on the virtual front door of this business in permanent paint that can't be cleaned away because he was unhappy. Plus, as I have said, we don't know the other side.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

It probably depends on the type of business. If it's a simple product that is either good or bad, then sure. Something like a restaurant in my eyes has to be pretty top notch to get all 5 star reviews. I've certainly seen lots of positive 4 star reviews for restaurants that are good, but not world class restaurants.

But you rate things in context. You're not Michelin. So what, does Calgary get say a dozen 5-star restaurants and the rest have to be four and under? That's insane and hurts businesses. If the food was good, service was good and the price was good, that's five stars or no rating at all. Anything else is just being mean and hurting a business completely unnecessarily.

[tvp2003]

Just on the topic of online reviews, I used to never leave reviews. Not worth my time to be honest.

But with the pandemic I decided to leave some 5* reviews to businesses that I like and who deserve it. Because if it helps them stay in business without raising prices then I benefit too. Just my $0.02.