Evan Woolley's motion to reconsider Flames Arena funding fails 4-11

[Senator Clay Davis]

Evan starting his 2021 mayoral campaign a little early. No shot it works, but it is elite grandstanding.

[dissentowner]

I don't live in Calgary and I have zero clue what the transit issue is so I can't really argue for or against it. What I can say is if the money allocated for the new arena is a drop in the bucket how could that possibly be good for the city of Calgary if the arena is not built? I mean lets be realistic here, if the city pulls out so are the Flames. I have zero doubt on that. A new arena also allows Olympic bids and other events that generate revenue. A new arena brings in new businesses surrounding it. I mean upgraded transit is great but it will never be on par with the other major cities like Toronto so if the Flames leave, the oil industry struggles or collapses, exactly what the hell will keep people in Calgary anyhow? I don't know enough about the city to know what else is the big industry there. I know the Stampede is a draw but what happens with that if CSEC pulls out of town with that? I don't see how the Flames leaving and no arena being built is better than an upgraded public transit. Then again, I am not there so I am in the dark a bit here.

[KTrain]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

I don't live in the SE, so imo the green line can pound sand. Mackenzie towners can take the bus a while longer.

The new Saddledome will be in the SE too. You can pound sand when you want to use it. SEasterners only.

[442scotty]

The arena is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of the green line. Killing the arena deal doesn’t help the green line one bit and it puts another nail in the coffin for downtown revitalization but nothing surprises me anymore. Stupid is stupid does in this city and province these days..

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by nik-

Population also continues to increase.

You're trying to sidestep the counter to your argument.

The traffic maps from 2011 to 2012 to 2013 were nearly unchanged. The west LRT pretty much had nil impact on taking cars off the road in that part of the city.

That, of course, doesn't mean that the project should not have happened. But it does mean that I don't buy "green line will take thousands of cars off the road" as an excuse to support Woolley's grandstanding. Especially since he *also* wants to pause the green line. He's being duplicitous here.

[Corral]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

You really need to ket your hatred of people who think differently from you go, it must be terrible starting each day hating someone because you don't like their label.

This is good advice for Premier Kenney.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

You're trying to sidestep the counter to your argument.

The traffic maps from 2011 to 2012 to 2013 were nearly unchanged. The west LRT pretty much had nil impact on taking cars off the road in that part of the city.

That, of course, doesn't mean that the project should not have happened. But it does mean that I don't buy "green line will take thousands of cars off the road" as an excuse to support Woolley's grandstanding. Especially since he *also* wants to pause the green line. He's being duplicitous here.

I'm suggesting how two things can be true at the same time.

The only traffic maps I can find have ranges of 15000 or 25000 cars. So perhaps you can show me which traffic maps you're referring to, I'm genuinely interested to see. With a ridership on the West LRT of 30000 per day, that's not going to change a traffic map with those bands. Not all those people were driving.

[81MC]

I’m not convinced the Green Line is the best option for improved transit in this City as is. I also have very little faith in those who are responsible for the design and integration of these kinds of projects.

The Dome isn’t JUST for the benefit of the CSEC - how many people attend NHL, WHL, NLL, concerts etc? It’s at the centre of the Stampede grounds after all.

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

So who are votes that will be a "lock" to go against Woolley's motion? I'm thinking:

-Magliocca
-Sutherland
-Davison
-Demong
-Nenshi
-DCU

That right there ends it.

I don’t know, Demong and others may switch with the new financial realities. It may be best to delay the project as at some point the money will start rolling back in for next election.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

You're trying to sidestep the counter to your argument.

The traffic maps from 2011 to 2012 to 2013 were nearly unchanged. The west LRT pretty much had nil impact on taking cars off the road in that part of the city.

That, of course, doesn't mean that the project should not have happened. But it does mean that I don't buy "green line will take thousands of cars off the road" as an excuse to support Woolley's grandstanding. Especially since he *also* wants to pause the green line. He's being duplicitous here.

Not disputing but surprised about that and I'd like to see numbers. I take it every day and it's full. I'm sure some were bus riders before, but the parkade is jammed.

Of course, population growth does have an impact. Even if the number of cars is the same as 6 years ago, the pop growth means that traffic should have grown. If it didn't surely LRT has a role in limiting the growth.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

I don’t know, Demong and others may switch with the new financial realities. It may be best to delay the project as at some point the money will start rolling back in for next election.

What will that matter if SCEC pulls out of town? You think if the Flames go there will ever be another NHL team in Calgary? Highly unlikely.

[Dienasty]

Why don't we just say that the new arena is a public art initiative.
Architecture of the building,
Public gathering area akin to "Jurassic Park" in Toronto, just spray paint some electrical boxes... https://www.calgary.ca/CSPS/Recreati...-Art/Home.aspx (Pictures 3-5 when scrolling down)
As well as housing concerts/Cirque de soile. ie the performing arts.

The City has no problem spending money on that.

[N-E-B]

If this passes I hope the Flames leave. I’m beginning to think our city does not deserve NHL hockey.

[FurnaceFace]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Evan starting his 2021 mayoral campaign a little early. No shot it works, but it is elite grandstanding.

Oh he started a long time ago. I was happy when he first got in as I thought he’d have new view but I’ve been unimpressed with my councillor over time. The timing of this smells very ripe.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

Really wish Woolley wasn't my MLA... What a fool

Well he isn't your MLA.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

What will that matter if SCEC pulls out of town? You think if the Flames go there will ever be another NHL team in Calgary? Highly unlikely.

If the Flames did leave hypothetically there's an argument that eventually another NHL team will come back ie Winnipeg. But the NHL is a much more stable beast now. I can see the Bettman condition for a new NHL team in Calgary would be arena first.


I don't see any billionaires being willing to self finance arena's in a city like Calgary anymore.

[Joborule]

As much as this is grandstanding, and hoping council isn't silly enough to pull off this stunt, the way the Greenline is proposed for phase 1 is stupid, and honestly needs to be reevaluated as a whole. So don't want money already agreed upon for a crucial piece of entertainment infrastructure to be allocated to it.

Greenline should not be going to SE first, when it won't even hit the big bulk of the SE population in the first phase. Meanwhile the NC part of the line will instantly hit the populated area of the north as soon as it crosses the river, and has a long way to go to catch up to the established communities further up.

The North LRT should be going first.

Has money been allocated for the arts centre, and fieldhouse yet? If Wooley wants to take money out of the pool from the 4 major civic projects that the arena is part of, do it from projects that doesn't have allocated money establish for it yet.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by nik-

I'm suggesting how two things can be true at the same time.

The only traffic maps I can find have ranges of 15000 or 25000 cars. So perhaps you can show me which traffic maps you're referring to, I'm genuinely interested to see. With a ridership on the West LRT of 30000 per day, that's not going to change a traffic map with those bands. Not all those people were driving.

Here's where I got the city's traffic maps from. They scale by the 1000s, which is helpful: https://www.calgary.ca/Transportatio...flow-maps.aspx

And I totally agree that many of those people were driving. As I recall, one of the big controversies about the opening of the west LRT was how many bus routes got axed since they wanted to direct those people to the trains.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Joborule

As much as this is grandstanding, and hoping council isn't silly enough to pull off this stunt, the way the Greenline is proposed for phase 1 is stupid, and honestly needs to be reevaluated as a whole. So don't want money already agreed upon for a crucial piece of entertainment infrastructure to be allocated to it.

Greenline should not be going to SE first, when it won't even hit the big bulk of the SE population in the first phase. Meanwhile the NC part of the line will instantly hit the populated area of the north as soon as it crosses the river, and has a long way to go to catch up to the established communities further up.

The North LRT should be going first.

Has money been allocated for the arts centre, and fieldhouse yet? If Wooley wants to take money out of the pool from the 4 major civic projects that the arena is part of, do it from projects that doesn't have allocated money establish for it yet.

I'm not 100% up to date, but I thought the green line had to go to the SE first because of the location of the maintenance facility?

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

I'm not 100% up to date, but I thought the green line had to go to the SE first because of the location of the maintenance facility?

That's their reasoning behind it, as well as city owning all the required right of way for the line already in SE. But there's a big area in the north right by inbetween Beddington Trail and Airport Trail that could have the maintenance facility, but it was never seriously considered.