Time for a call-up from the Wranglers!

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Agreed.


Why is this a criterion in the definition of "NHL ready" when players more often make the jump directly from the AHL after having been cut from training camp?

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I'm just using training camp as the easiest place for players to prove they can handle NHL opposition. Realistically, they can do it anytime during a pre-season or season, but until they do it, they're not ready for the NHL.

I dunno, am I just weird for seeing a line between ready to play in the NHL and ready to show they can play in the NHL?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I'm just using training camp as the easiest place for players to prove they can handle NHL opposition. Realistically, they can do it anytime during a pre-season or season, but until they do it, they're not ready for the NHL.



I dunno, am I just weird for seeing a line between ready to play in the NHL and ready to show they can play in the NHL?

Okay, but then the same difference applies both to players who make the team out of camp and those who crack the roster mid-season. Either they are all "NHL ready" at the time they make the jump, or they are not.

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[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Okay, but then the same difference applies both to players who make the team out of camp and those who crack the roster mid-season. Either they are all "NHL ready" at the time they make the jump, or they are not.

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I'm getting enough blowback on this to consider that I'm wrong, but I still think it's crazy I'm the only one who sees a difference between "ready to play in the NHL" and "ready for another NHL tryout."

Like, not every callup makes the jump. The act of just being called up does not make someone an NHL player. They have to do enough to stick around until someone tells them to buy a house (figure of speech).

What have people seen about Zary, Pelletier and Philips that makes them think they can play the same way in the NHL? They're not 4th liners, so no one's calling them up to replace Rooney's 7 minutes a game. They're going to have to produce when they're here, otherwise what's the point?

[TheScorpion]

That said, Rooney is only getting 7 minutes because he's not good. I think ideally you should be able to have a fourth line that you give 10-12 minutes a night. And it should be able to actually outscore the other team.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I think ideally you should be able to have a fourth line that you give 10-12 minutes a night. And it should be able to actually outscore the other team.

If those guys could outscore the other team, they wouldn't be on the fourth line. A more realistic hope is that they will play an even game against other teams' fourth lines, but sometimes they will be out on the ice against opponents who outclass them.

At bottom, the fourth line exists for bench management. Their principal job is to take enough minutes so the top nine forwards don't have to play more than they can consistently handle. How many minutes that is depends on the system the team plays and the tempo at which they play it.

Darryl Sutter's system is very demanding physically, which is why he was so vocal about the team's poor fitness level back in 2021. Given the choice between having his top forwards conserve their energy so they can play 22 minutes, or go balls to the wall for 18 minutes, he will always choose the latter. But those minutes have to be played by someone.

Incidentally, I'm not defending Rooney here at all. Now that Ruzicka has earned a regular spot, Rooney is definitely the 13th forward, and if the team was healthy, the number of minutes he'd play would be zero. The best I can say is that I understand why Treliving signed him when he did. Kadri wasn't even in the conversation yet, there was no telling if Monahan could play, and the team just needed bodies who could play centre. But I think Treliving hoped Rooney would work out better than he has so far. Instead, he's shaping up to be this year's Pitlick.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I'm getting enough blowback on this to consider that I'm wrong, but I still think it's crazy I'm the only one who sees a difference between "ready to play in the NHL" and "ready for another NHL tryout."

Like, not every callup makes the jump. The act of just being called up does not make someone an NHL player. They have to do enough to stick around until someone tells them to buy a house (figure of speech).

What have people seen about Zary, Pelletier and Philips that makes them think they can play the same way in the NHL? They're not 4th liners, so no one's calling them up to replace Rooney's 7 minutes a game. They're going to have to produce when they're here, otherwise what's the point?

There's no way to know the answer to this without actually seeing them play against NHLers. There's no way to see them play against NHLers without them playing some games in the NHL.

I think Phillips has earned himself a 6-8 game audition at the NHL level. If he doesn't get a shot with the big club this year he's probably walking in the summer anyways so... why not give him a shot?

[TheScorpion]

Most fourth lines play against other fourth lines. The Flames are one of the few teams that don't match lines, which probably hurts the existing fourth-line contingent. But if you're in the position of assuming you'll be outscored anyway, I'd sooner put guys out there with actual upside -- and maybe you'll draw even. I'd rather have small guys who can forecheck than big guys who are too slow to keep up.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

There's no way to know the answer to this without actually seeing them play against NHLers. There's no way to see them play against NHLers without them playing some games in the NHL.

I think Phillips has earned himself a 6-8 game audition at the NHL level. If he doesn't get a shot with the big club this year he's probably walking in the summer anyways so... why not give him a shot?

That's literally my entire argument. We can't call them NHL ready until we've seen them play in the NHL and play well enough to stay there. We've seen Philips and Pelletier play against NHLers in preseason and they didn't show they belong here.

I'm 100% on board with calling them up and giving them another crack and showing they belong here, I'm just not willing to say they belong here until they show it.

[Mindtravellee]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

That's literally my entire argument. We can't call them NHL ready until we've seen them play in the NHL and play well enough to stay there. We've seen Philips and Pelletier play against NHLers in preseason and they didn't show they belong here.

I'm 100% on board with calling them up and giving them another crack and showing they belong here, I'm just not willing to say they belong here until they show it.

I get what you mean.

What else would you use NHL Ready to describe. If they succeed in the NHL they become an NHL player and if they don't, they become a plug/role player. The players mentioned are ready to play in the NHL.

There is also part that some players need a few games in the NHL to learn, go back and reaching that next level to become 'NHL Ready'

[Paulie Walnuts]

Shane Wright is in the AHL and scored. Whoever is calling games for the Seattle AHL affiliate is awful some of the worst play by play I've heard.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

That said, Rooney is only getting 7 minutes because he's not good. I think ideally you should be able to have a fourth line that you give 10-12 minutes a night. And it should be able to actually outscore the other team.

Woof. Pro scouting department bombed again with Rooney. Hats of to him and his agent for somehow managing to get $2.6 million over the next two seasons from an NHL team but man the Flames are terrible at pro scouting bottom six players. I'm still ticked they gaslit a 4th round pick for Pitlick last season.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

That said, Rooney is only getting 7 minutes because he's not good. I think ideally you should be able to have a fourth line that you give 10-12 minutes a night. And it should be able to actually outscore the other team.

You want your best players to play more, worse players to play less.

The average forward plays 15 minutes a game, so having your worse play 12 is way too much.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

We've seen Philips and Pelletier play against NHLers in preseason and they didn't show they belong here.

I don't think that's specific to those 2 guys. IIRC quite a number of players on the team, including Ruzicka, had a rough preseason.

[mile]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1595446840950161409

[iggyloob12]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

I don't think that's specific to those 2 guys. IIRC quite a number of players on the team, including Ruzicka, had a rough preseason.

Darryl even said the cap and waivers were factors in the final roster. That's why guys like Ruzicka and Mackey made the team and someone like Zary, a near-final cut, didn't. It's also why Mackey is still with the big club when he clearly isn't earning it.

[TheScorpion]

A little off-topic, but I wrote about Yan Kuznetsov:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1595492230445568001

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Shane Wright is in the AHL and scored. Whoever is calling games for the Seattle AHL affiliate is awful some of the worst play by play I've heard.

How is Wright allowed to play in the AHL?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

How is Wright allowed to play in the AHL?

"conditioning stint"

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

That said, Rooney is only getting 7 minutes because he's not good. I think ideally you should be able to have a fourth line that you give 10-12 minutes a night. And it should be able to actually outscore the other team.

Didn't we talk about this 8 weeks ago?

Pro hockey has about 46 minutes of five on five hockey. Over the past few weeks we've had many criticize Sutter (and I get this argument) for making the disparity between ice time too tight.

Now you want the fourth line to eat up another 5 minutes?

This isn't about who's the best fourth liner, it's about developing kids in roles where they can play and not sit on the fourth line.

If you call up a solid AHL line of great young talent and take away ice time from your top players you hurt your team. If you call up a solid AHL line of great young talent and stifle them with 7 minutes a night you kill their development.

This isn't a Calgary thing, it's roster construction.

Get an injury and then a guy like Pelletier has to play top nine minutes. He succeeds, and you make room for him.

But you can't fit a 12 minute fourth line into the NHL roster balance, and it's not about mindlessly loving plugs or veteran players.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Didn't we talk about this 8 weeks ago?

Pro hockey has about 46 minutes of five on five hockey. Over the past few weeks we've had many criticize Sutter (and I get this argument) for making the disparity between ice time too tight.

Now you want the fourth line to eat up another 5 minutes?

This isn't about who's the best fourth liner, it's about developing kids in roles where they can play and not sit on the fourth line.

If you call up a solid AHL line of great young talent and take away ice time from your top players you hurt your team. If you call up a solid AHL line of great young talent and stifle them with 7 minutes a night you kill their development.

This isn't a Calgary thing, it's roster construction.

Get an injury and then a guy like Pelletier has to play top nine minutes. He succeeds, and you make room for him.

But you can't fit a 12 minute fourth line into the NHL roster balance, and it's not about mindlessly loving plugs or veteran players.

Our 4th line gets that 10-12 minutes, if you are going to be stubborn and roll 4 lines when it doesn't work, I would rather have talented players getting those minutes. Rolling out junk like Lucic, Rooney, Ritchie and Lewis doesn't help the team or create any offence. I don't actually mind Lewis, but the rest shouldn't be playing.