Brad Treliving needs to go

[flames_fan_down_under]

I am not sure who here is even saying that a new GM would give this organization a meteoric rise to greatness. We just see our current GM doing similar things over and over and directing this team to the bottom of the standings. Is it ok to not want that?

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

I'm not a mind reader but i think he chose 7 years because that's how long Treliving has been the GM of the Flames....

See second paragraph: ‘understanding Treliving has had 7 years...’

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Like I said, I am still sour that Treliving picked Brandon Bollig over a future 20 goal scorer who absolutely has game breaking ability with his speed alone. He may have struggled to score on breakaways here, but first off, getting breakaways itself in the NHL is a difficult feat and secondly, he sure figured it out in Montreal where’s he’s been great there and even wears a letter.

Also, the only stupid comment is the years of bellyaching over Sam Bennett needing an elite coach or better line mates to take him to the next level. He’s had his shot with better linemates this season and finally he gets his elite coach and nothing has changed, still exactly the same player. Maybe worse because he’s on pace for the worst plus minus of his career. He’s been a colossal disappointment and he’s absolutely a big reason the Flames aren’t where they want to be. This could all be stated in the Sam Bennett thread, but I can’t even bump that thread anymore with all the overly sensitive Sam Bennett fans who may have to finally come to terms with what he actually is instead of blaming everything and everyone else.

There’s another thread for that subject

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

Outside of choosing the owners, what decisions is the GM not a part of that must be looked at?

Ownership isn't changing. Everything else is tied to the gm.

Are you suggesting that ownership have set this franchise up for inevitable and utter failure regardless of the gm? (sorry I haven't gone back in the thread to find the crux of your argument).

A couple posts from earlier that I made. I wouldn't fire BT but it also isn't irrational to do so. My general point is that in and of itself it may not solve anything if there are other factors in play. Similar to firing the coach. This organization needs to stop looking at scapegoats as an easy answer.

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Yeah the series of:
Sign Raymond
Buyout Raymond
Sign Brouwer
Buyout Brower
Sign Stone
Buyout Stone
Sign Neal
Trade Neal for Lucic

There's no way you can't look at that and level some valid criticism at the GM. I think the Stone one gets overblown as he was effective until his clotting issues.

But there's a common theme where the pro scouting or analytics with the team seem flawed. With the scouting, the amateur scouting seems improved - but the pro scouting consistently has led to questionable decisions. Is it the scouts or what they are being asked to prioritize?

And then on the analytics side, has that department disagreed with the decisions and they aren't listened to? Or are they in agreement? What is being tracked and measured and has it proven to be an effective means to evaluate players?

Hard to know where the problems actually are, and ultimately the GM is accountable but if there are more root causes in play, swapping the GM won't do much.

It's also the reason why I say if you are going to fire the GM, don't hand the keys to someone on his team (e.g. Conroy) who has been a part of the group that has made the decisions that have led you to fire the GM.

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I rank Hamonic is the second biggest blunder, including because the Flames didn't include any lottery protection. Even though Noah Dobson is a good player, it could have been a lot worse. It speaks to how much the club over-estimated where they were in terms of competing.

But there are two things to look at here.

Reasons why the Flames don't have a competitive team at this sage

1. The core of the team failing to take another step as anticipated
2. Sam Bennett not being a top of the line-up forward
3. Poor UFA signings
4. Shedding of picks in some bad deals (Hamonic namely)

Some of the above were out of the GM's control and some were.

So then we can look at

The mistakes the GM made
1. Overall trying to accelerate the re-build to compete sooner (which actually then drives almost all actual mistakes made, ownership likely a factor here too)
2. Signing James Neal
3. Hamonic Deal
4. Other bad UFAs
5. Shedding too many picks in some bad deals

Something like that.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by TOfan

See second paragraph: ‘understanding Treliving has had 7 years...’

See your first sentence of your own post.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

A couple posts from earlier that I made. I wouldn't fire BT but it also isn't irrational to do so. My general point is that in and of itself it may not solve anything if there are other factors in play. Similar to firing the coach. This organization needs to stop looking at scapegoats as an easy answer.

Does Brad treliving have any say in his pro scouting staff?

Maybe this is my lack of understanding, but I consider the owners to the board, that select the company ceo. The ceo, to some varying degree of autonomy, decides how to govern the rest of the organization and the leaders of each realm of the company.

As such, the gm is tied to everything. He has the power to make changes in his team of leaders (coaching, amateur scouts, pro scouts, etc).

[ComixZone]

It’s weird to me that same scouting staff that spotted Derek Ryan, also thought Troy Brouwer and James Neal were good signings.

The underlying numbers of Ryan were effectively the exact opposite of those of Brouwer and Neal.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

See your first sentence of your own post.

Good stuff mate, keep it up.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

Does Brad treliving have any say in his pro scouting staff?

Maybe this is my lack of understanding, but I consider the owners to the board, that select the company ceo. The ceo, to some varying degree of autonomy, decides how to govern the rest of the organization and the leaders of each realm of the company.

As such, the gm is tied to everything. He has the power to make changes in his team of leaders (coaching, amateur scouts, pro scouts, etc).

I assume he does.
So based on how poorly this season has gone, I would want to know if he understands the drivers of that and if he has a plan that i would buy into in terms of how to change that. Not just from a player personnel point of view, but from the perspective of what staff, processes, analytics or other things need to change.

Or you can just fire him and move on to the next scapegoat with no understanding of that.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

It’s weird to me that same scouting staff that spotted Derek Ryan, also thought Troy Brouwer and James Neal were good signings.

The underlying numbers of Ryan were effectively the exact opposite of those of Brouwer and Neal.

Exactly. Understanding stuff like that, which we don't, would help pinpoint the specific problems to be solved.
Did the analytics department support signing Ryan but not Brower? Or did they support both?
How is the input from scouts, analytics and other sources of information used to make decisions?

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I assume he does.
So based on how poorly this season has gone, I would want to know if he understands the drivers of that and if he has a plan that i would buy into in terms of how to change that. Not just from a player personnel point of view, but from the perspective of what staff, processes, analytics or other things need to change.

Or you can just fire him and move on to the next scapegoat with no understanding of that.

If it takes him 7 years to realize that, does that not raise eye brows in his level of cempetence in the role?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

If it takes him 7 years to realize that, does that not raise eye brows in his level of cempetence in the role?

For much of that 7 years one would have argued that things were progressing overall in spite of some obvious mistakes (e.g. Neal). That the team seemed to be building to becoming a contender.

It changed after the Avs series.

Every GM makes mistakes. Comes down to whether you think he's made too many or not. I'm more interested in understanding the deeper causes of those and if they can be fixed. Which I realize we don't have and won't get visibility into.

Firing the GM is just another easy answer though.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

If it takes him 7 years to realize that, does that not raise eye brows in his level of cempetence in the role?

Half the leagues GMs have been at it with a team longer.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

It’s weird to me that same scouting staff that spotted Derek Ryan, also thought Troy Brouwer and James Neal were good signings.

The underlying numbers of Ryan were effectively the exact opposite of those of Brouwer and Neal.

Scouting staff?

They didn’t ‘spot him’

The GM’s handpicked coach had the GM bring him in.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Look, people need to get over the Bennett thing. One draft pick, 7 years ago. And it’s not like they are eating a lot of cap with his contract.

Some picks like Gaudreau pan out unbelievably well, some like Bennett don’t.

Hamonic was acquired for three chances for something else to pan out.

What is this Tkachuk kid?
Why is Tre spending 4.5 M on Rasmus?

Lots of moving parts and death by a thousand cuts with Tre.

Bennett was the one chance at a top 5 pick this team has ever had. Ever. He should have been a blue chip C and he wasn’t. That ain’t on Treliving because Bennett was the consensus pick - it’s on Bennett. What is the single biggest missing element on this team? A true #1C. It ain’t Monahan or Lindholm, and that’s nothing against them.

Rasmus will be worth 4.5M over the life of his contract. Tkachuk - we’ll see. But he’s already many times better than Bennett.

Bennett was 7 years ago, but the ripples of not getting that 1C are still being felt, because that’s the only way to get one unless you get really really lucky.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Exactly. Understanding stuff like that, which we don't, would help pinpoint the specific problems to be solved.
Did the analytics department support signing Ryan but not Brower? Or did they support both?
How is the input from scouts, analytics and other sources of information used to make decisions?

The Ryan signing is a 2 piece puzzle

Bill Peters coached him in Carolina

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Why 7 years? Why not 4? 8? 9? Is there some sort of rule of thumb on how many years a GM should get?

Understanding BT has had 7 years, but there’s also a 7 year investment with this GM the organization has made. He was/is a young hockey executive whom I’m sure the ownership has expected to grow. Why is a GM only permitted one rebuild or one ‘cycle’?

It seems to me many of the people here arguing for BT’s dismissal think who ever it is that replaces him will carry this team to a meteoric rise to greatness. I’m highly skeptical. Who out there replaces Treliving and is a no doubt about it better GM? Lombardi? Botterill? Or are the Flames going to roll the dice on another first timer like Kevin Weekes?

As for the bolded part, you state that as a fact, but it isn’t. Whether it is here or somewhere else, circumstances will dictate whether Treliving is able to build a cup contender. Labelling him as incompetent, as you have repeatedly done, is misguided.

Brad, you've had 7 years to run this team. Its been a failure. Its been long enough.

Its a business of results, why did you get to fire Hartley? Gultzen? Ward? Should they have gotten more than 1 "cycle"? No, similarly you shouldnt get to run this frnachise into ground anymore either.

You're arguments are really weak; your excuse is maybe the next guy can't turn it around either so thats the reason to keep up with your mediocrity?

Bolded part is a fact. 7 years, 1 playoff round win. Thats brutal.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Bennett was the one chance at a top 5 pick this team has ever had. Ever. He should have been a blue chip C and he wasn’t. That ain’t on Treliving because Bennett was the consensus pick - it’s on Bennett. What is the single biggest missing element on this team? A true #1C. It ain’t Monahan or Lindholm, and that’s nothing against them.

Rasmus will be worth 4.5M over the life of his contract. Tkachuk - we’ll see. But he’s already many times better than Bennett.

Bennett was 7 years ago, but the ripples of not getting that 1C are still being felt, because that’s the only way to get one unless you get really really lucky.

Who cares how much ‘better’ Tkachuk is than any teammate? He is a guy who appears immature, is being overpaid for what he is delivering, and has to be qualified at an ugly 9 million

The team has many draft picks they have overlooked, who have played right under their noses, like Getzlaf and Brayden Point

It’s not good on Tre that his 4th OA didn’t pan out. Clearly with the benefit of hindsight, Tre missed something, didn’t he?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Getzlaf?
You mean in the draft where the Flames drafted a dman that would play over 1000 games?
Odd gear to grind

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Getzlaf?
You mean in the draft where the Flames drafted a dman that would play over 1000 games?
Odd gear to grind

Odd thing to cherry pick. We are talking about #1 Cs

Just because Phaneuf wasn’t a bust doesn’t take away from the fact that Getzlaf clearly had a better career and is something the Flames haven’t been able to draft

Why don’t you get back to the mystery of evaluating Derek Ryan?