Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by stang

It’s been widely reported that his physical and mental state coming into last year was poor due to 2 back to back cup final losses. This year he’s been training with Connor under Roberts.

I’m more thinking he’s going to be good with Nuge, and on the PP

The thing is, Neal can’t play defence. Nuge matches up against other teams top lines. So essentially he is not good enough defensively to play on second line, not quick enough to play on first line. That put him out of the top 6, even on the Oilers.
I was shocked when I heard the trade, but reading here and taking some time to process I understand it. Not saying it is a great trade, but Neal had to go.
The best thing that can happen (for us) in Edmonton is Neal is slotted as a top 6, where he doesn’t belong. He can put up some points with McD, but will be an anchor on any top 6 in the league.

Lucic will be interesting to watch in Calgary. Playing in bottom 6 he can work the boards and hit better then Neal. It IS an upgrade on our bottom 6.

The only negative is the contract, and the fact we can’t buy it out if it doesn’t work out.

[GioforPM]

Neal played more time ES with Jankowski than any other C, about 35%. But he played about fifteen percent with Backs, who is as much like RNH as anyone else on the Flames. And Neal managed but one point with Backlund.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The fact that there are the two scenarios makes this condition seem a lot smarter on reflection. We know Neal only contributes by scoring, whereas Lucic possibly contributes in several ways. So either Neal is a dud even though he will get tried as a top six, in which case the Flames win just on salary and equivalent contribution (or maybe decent contribution from Lucic) or he scores 20 (which I don't think moves the needle in Edmonton) and the Flames get a third.

The one thing I hate the most about this trade is the conditional 3rd. It just makes BT look better it we lose the trade.
If you are gonna make the trade, then just make the damn trade and maximize your return.
I would rather see a 5thor a 6th coming back with no conditions.
Make the trade, wipe the slate clean and move on with what you have rather than scoreboard watching the coilers all season.

Will be interesting BOA though.

[Husky]

This trade will be great. Flames instantly got tougher and this will trickle down to all players. Its tough and swagger. Lucic will be a good player for guys like lomberg, bennett and tkachuk to learn some of the tough gritty power game from.

[Robo]

What's the deal about training with Gary roberts any time a player has a bad season they go train with him and usually still suck the following. hopefully Gary Roberts can strap some rocket powered skates to Neil because if his speed doesn't improve he is going to be just as useless next year

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TheOnlyBilko

How does Gaudreau calling Lucic, probably just to welcome him to the team, have any meaning "the Flames top to bottom really wanted Neal gone"?

Like I'm sure many Oilers called Jimmy Carson & Bernie Nicholls back in the day as well...

He called him to tell him to waive his clause and come to Calgary which makes it pretty pertinent.

But sure if he called him to tell him Stranger Things 3 was good it wouldn't have the same impact. Luckily that wasn't the case.

[PegCityFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Husky

This trade will be great. Flames instantly got tougher and this will trickle down to all players. Its tough and swagger. Lucic will be a good player for guys like lomberg, bennett and tkachuk to learn some of the tough gritty power game from.

Lucic brings swagger and toughness? My god how quick the koolaid has passed around.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by stang

I thought he’d bounce back next year on the Flames. Assumed double cup final hangover really hurt him.

No 30 goals but talks of 20 hopefully. Might be a fit with RNH

I think he has a shot at that in Edmonton if he can keep up ... but in Calgary I would have been happy with 15 on the third line as he won't move into the top six.

With Calgary built on a top line, and having a shut down second line that can score he just didn't fit in

[Husky]

Originally Posted by PegCityFlamesFan

Lucic brings swagger and toughness? My god how quick the koolaid has passed around.

Regarless of scoring he is a presence on the ice.

[scotty2hotty]

Originally Posted by PegCityFlamesFan

Lucic brings swagger and toughness? My god how quick the koolaid has passed around.

Now you’re just being contrary for the sake of it.

Question Lucic’s skill, fitness, intelligence all you want.

Swagger and toughness is almost universally accepted, however.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I found this to be interesting, We knew Neal was really bad but is this a indication Lucic isn't as bad as we think or the Oilers depth sucks more than we thought?

Flames (14 forwards with 200+ minutes)

James Neal was
12th in CF%
13th in SF%
13th in GF%
13th in xGF%
13th in SCF%
12th in HDCF%
5th in offensive zone starts


Oilers (15 forwards with 200+ minutes)

Milan Lucic was
4th in CF%
5th in SF%
7th in GF%
3rd in xGF%
4th in SCF%
4th in HDCF%
12th in offensive zone starts

Yeah I was surprised when I put that up yesterday. But no it doesn't have anything to do with Edmonton depth. There isn't 5 good possession players on every team, so a team that sucks has a guy that has good numbers but really isn't that good.

Actually the opposite. He was a play driver by any measure playing with hot garbage. That is stunning to me.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by stang

85% of CP loved him a year ago.

Before he played a minute in Calgary I think 85% loved the contract signing for sure, with some pretty serious concern about the term length.

By November 1st those numbers were tipping the other way quickly though.

[The Cobra]

Calgary management knew that this would be a hard sell to the Calgary fans based on a number of factors, including (and maybe most importantly) the fact he played for Edmonton and has been repeatedly slammed by Calgary fans and media for a few years.

Reports of Gio and Johnny reaching out is likely as much about controlling the media and putting the suggestion out there that the players wanted Lucic on the team. Players reach out to new team mates all the time.

[taxbuster]

The biggest winners in this trade are the Flames owners. They saved $7 Million in cold, hard, cash. (Plus a small amount of cap relief.)

This is not a "fan" or a "hockey" trade...it's a "money" trade. Pure and simple. The hope (on both teams) is that the savings for the Flames comes with some bonus toughness, and for the Greasers that they get some scoring for what they paid.

One way or another the Flames come out ahead.

Whether we, as fans, will be better off we will need to wait to see.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think he has a shot at that in Edmonton if he can keep up ... but in Calgary I would have been happy with 15 on the third line as he won't move into the top six.

With Calgary built on a top line, and having a shut down second line that can score he just didn't fit in

That second paragraph is very true IMO and a damning indictment of the signing in the first place. He went from being just what they needed to not a fit very very quickly.

[Cycling76er]

Originally Posted by Husky

Regarless of scoring he is a presence on the ice.

Irregarless

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

That second paragraph is very true IMO and a damning indictment of the signing in the first place. He went from being just what they needed to not a fit very very quickly.

In a bubble sure.

But I think the plan was Neal on the top line and Lindholm as an upgrade on the second line which lines up and makes a whole lot of sense.

Instead Neal doesn't have chemistry with Gaudreau and Monahan and slides down, and never really gets another chance because Lindholm fit like a glove.

Happens.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

In a bubble sure.

But I think the plan was Neal on the top line and Lindholm as an upgrade on the second line which lines up and makes a whole lot of sense.

Instead Neal doesn't have chemistry with Gaudreau and Monahan and slides down, and never really gets another chance because Lindholm fit like a glove.

Happens.

Not sure what you mean by in a bubble. I’m not blaming this on lack of chemistry with Gaudreau and Monahan. If that was the only way for it to work, then yikes. Pretty narrow plan and not much time for it to come to fruition.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah I was surprised when I put that up yesterday. But no it doesn't have anything to do with Edmonton depth. There isn't 5 good possession players on every team, so a team that sucks has a guy that has good numbers but really isn't that good.

Actually the opposite. He was a play driver by any measure playing with hot garbage. That is stunning to me.

And this is why these advanced stats mean so very little at times. People use them to justify players that simply are not good enough to be playing though. (And no Im not saying you are doing this, but it happens with great regularity)

Over the course of the last 2 years and amongst forwards who played as many or more games than him, he ranks 60th of 63 in offensive production. Against all players of any amount of games...220th overall.

I mean who cares if he "drives the play", if there is nothing to show for it?

Just based on his last year and a half, we can expect 19-31 goals if he plays every game in the next 4 seasons.

This is a horrendous player with a worse contract that is almost impossible to get out from under.

I get he brings the most serious snarl in the game as a part of his game, and I LOVE that part of things but here is the rub...he isnt good enough to play enough to use that snarl to any sort of advantage.

This was BT being so desperate to address the missing toughness on the team, he was willing to over look the much more important factors of the player he was bringing in. All in hopes of changing the teams fortunes in a playoff series that it may or may not be part of come next April.

I hope that some of the enthusiasm he reportedly has from this deal and a change of scenery suddenly sees him remember how to play the game again, but I'm sure as hell not holding my breath on it. Especially when it looks like he will be playing with Ryan and Bennett...two other guys that are lacking to varying degrees in production totals themselves.

[woob]

You forgot the "Full Stop."

There's one thing this thread shows pretty quick; it has been a QUIET off season. People losing their minds over this. Yegads! September 16th can't come soon enough.