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Old 10-03-2022, 12:58 PM   #21
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The optimal way to handle the fishing scandal is to turn the weigh in round into a game of bullsh-t. Details to be fleshed out by someone else, but an objection must be accompanied by the loudest, most creative BS expression, which could be it's own mini game. Loser has to eat fish.
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Old 10-03-2022, 01:10 PM   #22
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The optimal way to handle the fishing scandal is to turn the weigh in round into a game of bullsh-t. Details to be fleshed out by someone else, but an objection must be accompanied by the loudest, most creative BS expression, which could be it's own mini game. Loser has to eat fish.
Lol! Or they're going to get a TSA X-Ray Machine brought out to fishing tournaments.

I have to say...I cant speak to most of these because I know little to nothing about Poker and though I know a little of Chess, probably not enough.

But the fishing one? I know nothing, but...when did they have time to shove fish full of things to increase their weight? I assume they had to shove things in their mouths because cuts would be noticed?

That fishing one is wild. Its like something off a Simpsons episode.
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Old 10-03-2022, 01:13 PM   #23
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Lol! Or they're going to get a TSA X-Ray Machine brought out to fishing tournaments.

I have to say...I cant speak to most of these because I know little to nothing about Poker and though I know a little of Chess, probably not enough.

But the fishing one? I know nothing, but...when did they have time to shove fish full of things to increase their weight? I assume they had to shove things in their mouths because cuts would be noticed?

That fishing one is wild. Its like something off a Simpsons episode.
Aren't they out on a lake on their own catching fish? They may have to put their beer down for a minute, but I'm sure there is a window of time there...
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Old 10-03-2022, 01:21 PM   #24
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There was a pretty good golf cheating scandal this summer as well that should be thrown in here.

https://firepitcollective.com/q-school-dq/
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Old 10-03-2022, 01:27 PM   #25
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I've followed both the chess and poker stories a bit and both of them are extremely similar:

- Well respected vet gets beat by a relatively inexperienced player
- Well respected vet accused the other one of cheating because their ego has a hard time handling the loss
- Zero evidence is presented other than "this is odd / unusual"
- Most people side with well respected vet and form all sorts wild theories about how/why the other player cheated

It's clearly an abuse of power and the chess one is even worse because Carlsen is basically the GOAT so his word carries a ton of weight. I've seen some commentary thrown around legal defamation because these top players are obviously harming the reputation of the lower players with no actual evidence other than "they shouldn't have beat me and they played unusual".

I had no idea about the fishing story, but that one seems pretty clear.
I can only speak intelligently to the chess scandal (and, really, only sort of intelligently…. I play chess a lot but am objectively terrible at it..)

The truth is I don’t know what to think anymore. On the one hand there is zero objective evidence that Hans cheated in the Sinquefeld cup game against Magnus, and his accuracy in that game was nothing special.

On the other: chess.com is apparently sitting on information about Hans that it is gong to trot out at some point, likely further to Magnus’ accusation that Hans has “cheated more, and more recently” than he has admitted.

And then there is the fact that Hans’ past tournament games show a history of EXTREMELY, I’ll say suspiciously, accurate play. Magnus might have a 100% acccuracy game in his career—so did Capablanca. But based on the chessbase measure Magnus’ average accuracy is more like 70%, and Garry Kasparov in his prime was 69%.

Hans Niemann, meanwhile, is a grand master but only recently someone that the world took notice of as a person who can win against “super GMs” like Carlsen, Nakamura, Eronian, etc. His FIDE rating has risen meteorically since the pandemic, in a way that is unusual at his age—not unheard of, but very unusual.

But… there is no evidence. And the vibrating anal beads theory strikes me as beyond far-fetched.

All of which is to say, I just don’t know, and don’t know how anyone could. Cheating is an existential threat to competitive chess right now though and I think it matters a lot for organizations like FIDE, chess.com, and other chess federations to get the response to this right.

Because here is the reality: I can believe that somehow Hans circumvented the controls and managed to communicate moves to himself with some kind of hidden device. What I kind of can’t believe is the proposition that ONLY HANS is doing or has done this. If he is doing it, I feel like it’s virtually certain others are doing it too.
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Old 10-03-2022, 01:35 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by nfotiu View Post
There was a pretty good golf cheating scandal this summer as well that should be thrown in here.

https://firepitcollective.com/q-school-dq/
Haha, that's amazing. How you would think that you could get away with that is just bizarre.
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Old 10-03-2022, 01:44 PM   #27
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...
- Zero evidence is presented other than "this is odd / unusual"...
In the game of odds, a clearly odd call is a very serious argument/accusation. High-stake hold'em poker is a game of quick mathematics involved in calculation of probabilities with each new card and ability to read other players' tells on its opening. It is safe to assume that all players at that table are equally excellent at doing the former. Making low-probability high-stake bets at that table is very suspicious regardless of a player. It is not impossible, of course, but it is highly unlikely without cheating; especially, when cheating is possible and plausible.

Same comment regarding chess. With computers calculating perfect moves in milliseconds, transmitting a perfect move to a player is possible and plausible.

Just like the infamous LZR swimming suites, the right question should be: how to prevent this from happening again in honest competitions and not how to prove that the players in question have cheated, which is practically impossible without direct admission of guilt from them or their accomplices.
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Old 10-03-2022, 02:19 PM   #28
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In the game of odds, a clearly odd call is a very serious argument/accusation. High-stake hold'em poker is a game of quick mathematics involved in calculation of probabilities with each new card and ability to read other players' tells on its opening. It is safe to assume that all players at that table are equally excellent at doing the former. Making low-probability high-stake bets at that table is very suspicious regardless of a player. It is not impossible, of course, but it is highly unlikely without cheating; especially, when cheating is possible and plausible.

Same comment regarding chess. With computers calculating perfect moves in milliseconds, transmitting a perfect move to a player is possible and plausible.

Just like the infamous LZR swimming suites, the right question should be: how to prevent this from happening again in honest competitions and not how to prove that the players in question have cheated, which is practically impossible without direct admission of guilt from them or their accomplices.
First of all, there is no real qualification to getting into a high stakes cash game except having money she's willing to risk. It's not like she's a seasoned pro that everyone knows.

Second, even if she knew his hole cards, every move she made was a bad move including letting the river run twice. The only way this can be full on cheating is if she knew his hole cards and the turn, the first river and second river. There is a slight chance that some of this could be accomplished by gaining access to the tech that scans the rfid for the hole cards for tv, but I can't imagine how they could scan the 3 cards that were going to follow the flop.
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Old 10-03-2022, 02:36 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by mrkajz44 View Post
I've followed both the chess and poker stories a bit and both of them are extremely similar:

- Well respected vet gets beat by a relatively inexperienced player
- Well respected vet accused the other one of cheating because their ego has a hard time handling the loss
- Zero evidence is presented other than "this is odd / unusual"
- Most people side with well respected vet and form all sorts wild theories about how/why the other player cheated

It's clearly an abuse of power and the chess one is even worse because Carlsen is basically the GOAT so his word carries a ton of weight. I've seen some commentary thrown around legal defamation because these top players are obviously harming the reputation of the lower players with no actual evidence other than "they shouldn't have beat me and they played unusual".

I had no idea about the fishing story, but that one seems pretty clear.
To be fair, pretty much every time there has been a supposed scandal in other games, it turns out to be true. Like the massive scandal in competitive bridge. Basically every champion is a cheat.

Although maybe that’s why these guys drop that bomb. They know it’s a trump card and it forever poisons the well.

Last edited by Cecil Terwilliger; 10-03-2022 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 10-03-2022, 02:37 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by mrkajz44 View Post
I've followed both the chess and poker stories a bit and both of them are extremely similar:

- Well respected vet gets beat by a relatively inexperienced player
- Well respected vet accused the other one of cheating because their ego has a hard time handling the loss
- Zero evidence is presented other than "this is odd / unusual"
- Most people side with well respected vet and form all sorts wild theories about how/why the other player cheated

It's clearly an abuse of power and the chess one is even worse because Carlsen is basically the GOAT so his word carries a ton of weight. I've seen some commentary thrown around legal defamation because these top players are obviously harming the reputation of the lower players with no actual evidence other than "they shouldn't have beat me and they played unusual".

I had no idea about the fishing story, but that one seems pretty clear.
Except that the relatively inexperienced player is a self proclaimed cheater, and it looks like there is further evidence that he cheated more than he’s admitted to. Additionally his mentor is a well known cheater.

Nobody defamed this guy more than he’s defamed himself.
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Old 10-03-2022, 02:52 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by CaptainYooh View Post
In the game of odds, a clearly odd call is a very serious argument/accusation. High-stake hold'em poker is a game of quick mathematics involved in calculation of probabilities with each new card and ability to read other players' tells on its opening. It is safe to assume that all players at that table are equally excellent at doing the former. Making low-probability high-stake bets at that table is very suspicious regardless of a player. It is not impossible, of course, but it is highly unlikely without cheating; especially, when cheating is possible and plausible.
Definitely not true. If everyone was playing the same and went solely by poker odds, only the house would ever win with all players losing.

Loose passive
Loose aggressive
Tight passive
Tight Aggressive

All 4 of these player types can be winning strategies or losing strategies if you are too easily read or get exploited, and you need to be aware of your table image. You play a table full of rocks differently then you would a table full of nits (even though both can look similar) much like playing a table full of LAGs can have you tearing your hair out as a nit.


Some high stakes players like Patrick Antonious are notoriously loose and aggressive and such a play from him would never raise eyebrows.

And all this, doesn't mean that Robbi Jade Lew is a good poker player just because she is playing a high stakes game. And a bad / good poker player doesn't mean that winning a hand on an odd play makes them a cheater.

Last edited by Firebot; 10-03-2022 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 10-03-2022, 03:24 PM   #32
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...
And all this, doesn't mean that Robbi Jade Lew is a good poker player just because she is playing a high stakes game. And a bad / good poker player doesn't mean that winning a hand on an odd play makes them a cheater.
As I said, it's not impossible, but the opposite is more likely. Why did she return the winnings?
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Old 10-03-2022, 04:37 PM   #33
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I'm shocked the fishing scandal didn't turn violent.
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Old 10-03-2022, 04:39 PM   #34
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how does one cheat in fishing ..
on their spouse with the fish?
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Old 10-03-2022, 05:27 PM   #35
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As I said, it's not impossible, but the opposite is more likely. Why did she return the winnings?
According to her she was pulled aside in a hallway with Garrett and one of the owners, who was a friend of his, accused of cheating and threatened even though they had no proof. She gave him his money back because she was intimidated and didn't wanted out of the situation. The whole thing stinks and I agree with Ivey's take, they should come up with some kind of proof or give her the money back.

I just don't buy the cheating angle. If they were smart enough to find a way to cheat there then she wouldn't have called on the flop. She also wouldn't have 3bet preflop earlier in the game with KJ when her opponent had QQ.

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Old 10-03-2022, 05:31 PM   #36
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how does one cheat in fishing ..
on their spouse with the fish?
I mean...the video is pretty self evident with the cheating
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Old 10-03-2022, 05:34 PM   #37
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I mean...the video is pretty self evident with the cheating
Just change the criteria to 'length' instead of 'weight' and boom! Sorted.

Unless they get some sort of fish-stretcher.
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Old 10-03-2022, 05:56 PM   #38
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I can only speak intelligently to the chess scandal (and, really, only sort of intelligently…. I play chess a lot but am objectively terrible at it..)

The truth is I don’t know what to think anymore. On the one hand there is zero objective evidence that Hans cheated in the Sinquefeld cup game against Magnus, and his accuracy in that game was nothing special.

On the other: chess.com is apparently sitting on information about Hans that it is gong to trot out at some point, likely further to Magnus’ accusation that Hans has “cheated more, and more recently” than he has admitted.

And then there is the fact that Hans’ past tournament games show a history of EXTREMELY, I’ll say suspiciously, accurate play. Magnus might have a 100% acccuracy game in his career—so did Capablanca. But based on the chessbase measure Magnus’ average accuracy is more like 70%, and Garry Kasparov in his prime was 69%.

Hans Niemann, meanwhile, is a grand master but only recently someone that the world took notice of as a person who can win against “super GMs” like Carlsen, Nakamura, Eronian, etc. His FIDE rating has risen meteorically since the pandemic, in a way that is unusual at his age—not unheard of, but very unusual.

But… there is no evidence. And the vibrating anal beads theory strikes me as beyond far-fetched.

All of which is to say, I just don’t know, and don’t know how anyone could. Cheating is an existential threat to competitive chess right now though and I think it matters a lot for organizations like FIDE, chess.com, and other chess federations to get the response to this right.

Because here is the reality: I can believe that somehow Hans circumvented the controls and managed to communicate moves to himself with some kind of hidden device. What I kind of can’t believe is the proposition that ONLY HANS is doing or has done this. If he is doing it, I feel like it’s virtually certain others are doing it too.
I believe Hans has cheated more recently than declared. I’m not convinced that he cheated here in this match versus Carlson or did just get lucky having studied an opening that Carlson had used before. And then Carlson’s belief that he was making computer moves through him off much like Kasparov was thrown off by the “human” moves deep blue made.

I do think cheating is widespread in online chess, too easy to cheat. In face to face there is probably some electronic communication being used like card counting in black Jack did.

The one interesting point in Hans favour is the guy to essentially invented cheating detection in chess Ragan didn’t find anything suspicious in Hans last to years of play.

Last edited by GGG; 10-03-2022 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 10-03-2022, 06:48 PM   #39
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That's what I like about fishing, it's a simple sport, if you find big arse chunks of lead in the fish then the wanker is a cheat
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Old 10-03-2022, 07:43 PM   #40
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The only real way you figure out the chess thing is you lock Magnus and Hans in a room with no outside access and nobody watching for a week and when they come out, they tell you what the score was. No way to cheat if no one else can see the board.
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