Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[Slava]

Originally Posted by timun

The sheer ####ing hypocrisy is why I'm mocking it. Slava simultaneous absolutely cannot forgive the NDP for their "cardinal sin", yet nary a peep about the financial mismanagement of the UCP government other than a sheepish "well, I'm not planning to vote for them either...".

Yes, the provincial debt did go up a lot under the NDP. They racked up $32B in budget deficits over four years.

The UCP racked up another $29.1B in their first two years. And they were forecasting another $18.2B deficit in fiscal year 2021-22, which they only managed to avoid because revenues ended up being $25B more than forecast through essentially no creditable action on their part whatsoever! And now this year they're forecasting an almost $12.3B surplus because—surprise!—resource revenue is forecast $22.7B higher than it ever was in any given year 2015-2019.

Just so we're all clear on what actually happened (all figures in millions of $):




Can we finally put this bull####-####ing-narrative that "the NDP are fiscally incompetent" to rest? 2019-2020 was self-inflicted stupidity on a scale far worse than the NDP EVER did.

First, I couldn’t possibly care less about your mocking. Fill your boots. It’s childish and lame, but whatever floats your boat.

Why are so keen for me to criticize the UCP? I don’t have to prove anything to you or anyone else on that front. I think they’re stunningly incompetent, and I don’t see anyone arguing otherwise. What I do see is a bunch of people trying to claim fiscal prudence for the NDP though, and I completely disagree, which is where my conundrum is.

And not to defend the current government, but there was a little extenuating circumstance in the midst of this term. I think that for a chunk of their financial situation you have to give them a pass? Let’s not kid ourselves about whether the NDP would’ve matched or exceeded that spending. I guess we’ll never know with any certainty, but I’d be taking the over.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Slava

First, I couldn’t possibly care less about your mocking. Fill your boots. It’s childish and lame, but whatever floats your boat.

Why are so keen for me to criticize the UCP? I don’t have to prove anything to you or anyone else on that front. I think they’re stunningly incompetent, and I don’t see anyone arguing otherwise. What I do see is a bunch of people trying to claim fiscal prudence for the NDP though, and I completely disagree, which is where my conundrum is.

And not to defend the current government, but there was a little extenuating circumstance in the midst of this term. I think that for a chunk of their financial situation you have to give them a pass? Let’s not kid ourselves about whether the NDP would’ve matched or exceeded that spending. I guess we’ll never know with any certainty, but I’d be taking the over.

Can you give examples of current provincial governments in Canada that you really like and feel are close to your financial “ideal”?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Can you give examples of current provincial governments in Canada that you really like and feel are close to your financial “ideal”?

I don’t know because I don’t really follow them close enough. But it’s probably not inaccurate to say that I’d find criticism with most of them, because it’s just how I am!

[iggy_oi]

Extenuating circumstances like reducing the corporate tax rate by 1/3?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Slava

First, I couldn’t possibly care less about your mocking. Fill your boots. It’s childish and lame, but whatever floats your boat.

Why are so keen for me to criticize the UCP? I don’t have to prove anything to you or anyone else on that front. I think they’re stunningly incompetent, and I don’t see anyone arguing otherwise. What I do see is a bunch of people trying to claim fiscal prudence for the NDP though, and I completely disagree, which is where my conundrum is.

And not to defend the current government, but there was a little extenuating circumstance in the midst of this term. I think that for a chunk of their financial situation you have to give them a pass? Let’s not kid ourselves about whether the NDP would’ve matched or exceeded that spending. I guess we’ll never know with any certainty, but I’d be taking the over.

Who is arguing the bolded?

The argument is:

1. NDP is no worse fiscally than UCP or previous PC regime (which is all that really matters in the binary debate we find ourselves in)

2. People generally accept that the NDP will spend more, and are okay with that, because we like where they want to spend the money

3. #2 isn't even true. The NDP spending is right inline with the regimes that sandwich them. The UCP just happened to get a 1 year windfall of resource revenue that exceeded the NDP's entire 4 year term. If you want to focus only on the net that's your right, but it's incredibly short sighted and ignores who set us on these resource rollercoaster tracks.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well again, I’m not voting for these clowns, and not planning on defending this regime. But, if you’re convinced the NDP nailed the fiscal part of their term it’s great news! They have a good shot to get back in! Honestly, all they need to do is buy some ad time and run clips from the phone call, clips from the now resigned Lethbridge West candidate and they should be off to the races.

You have a binary choice this election. You were a UPC voter by not voting for either the UCP or NDP it’s a half vote for the NDP.. So you are half way there. My argument isn’t that the NDP were good fiscal stewards though they did get 0/0/0 union contracts through the public sector.

It’s simply that the one reason people think they vote for the UCP is not Valid with the current party (or any historical one since the end of Klein’s second term). They are not fiscal stewards.

So if neither will be ideal fiscal stewards who raise corporate taxes and add a sales tax and put any royalties above those generated at $50 WTI in a stablization fund and balance the budget then we need to find someone else’s to vote for.

I contend we should vote for the party who when faced with evidence they have made bad policies or are incorrect they are willing to accept the evidence and change there plans. The NDP have shown they will do this with the Royalty Review. The UCP have not.

Secondly I’d prefer a premier and prime minister who didn’t obstruct Justice.

Anyway you really should decide which of the two potential winning candidates in your riding represents that Larry with the better but flawed vision and pick one.

This isn’t like last election where the UCP was sweeping Calgary so voting for a 3rd party was a hopeful vote for more options. Here you have a choice to make so you should make it.

[timun]

Originally Posted by Slava

Why are so keen for me to criticize the UCP? I don’t have to prove anything to you or anyone else on that front. I think they’re stunningly incompetent, and I don’t see anyone arguing otherwise. What I do see is a bunch of people trying to claim fiscal prudence for the NDP though, and I completely disagree, which is where my conundrum is.

And not to defend the current government, but there was a little extenuating circumstance in the midst of this term. I think that for a chunk of their financial situation you have to give them a pass? Let’s not kid ourselves about whether the NDP would’ve matched or exceeded that spending. I guess we’ll never know with any certainty, but I’d be taking the over.

Why am I so keen for you to criticize the UCP? Because you get so close to doing it and then you skew off onto some bogus tangent about the NDP, and it reminds me of so many people I know in real life.

Case in point the post above. You just can't help yourself from making excuses for the UCP's financial mismanagement, and throwing shade at the NDP. The UCP cut taxes, increased spending, "borrowed for operations" and ran a bigger deficit than the NDP ever did in the 2019-2020 fiscal year. Why in the hell does that deserve a pass? Covid hadn't happened yet.

The reason you absolutely cannot abide the NDP is "borrowing for operations", and yet the UCP borrowed more in that one year than the NDP did over the course of their entire time in government, and you say "I think we have to give the UCP a pass". WHY?!?! "Let’s not kid ourselves about whether the NDP would’ve matched or exceeded that spending. I guess we’ll never know with any certainty, but I’d be taking the over." WHY?!?! Again: you're running cover for a bunch of idiots who by your own criteria were WORSE! Why in the hell should any of us believe the NDP would've been worse? The UCP are worse, demonstrably so.

You say you think the UCP are stunningly incompetent? Then quit making excuses for them. Quit repeating Conservative propaganda about how they're better financial stewards. Quit being a hypocrite. Quit acting like a brainwashed rube trying to gaslight the rest of us into believing this stupid crap.

[PsYcNeT]

I'd go so far as to saying that world oil dumping in '15 had a larger impact on Alberta economically than COVID did in '20.

The UCP is just own-goal after own-goal.

[Fuzz]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1641607652253003776

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

The argument with Slava on this stuff just... how is it difficult to understand that "yeah, but the UCP is even worse! Look at how terrible the UCP is at the same thing you criticized the NDP for" is not a counterargument to "both of these are bad options"?

In any other circumstance, refusing to vote for an NDP still run by the same Rachel Notley who presided over the power purchase contracts debacle would be totally reasonable. As would refusing to vote for either party. It's only in this narrow circumstance where you simply have to vote for them because the other option is utterly and completely non-viable and must be prevented from being given a mandate to run the province that a vote for this NDP becomes a necessity. There's absolutely a centrist, or conservative, place to stand politically where you're not completely insane but you're holding your nose while you vote NDP because the "Take Back Alberta" UCP is going to be orders of magnitude worse than the NDP was last time.

All that said, I have quite a bit of optimism the Notley NDP will be better this time and won't make dumb, easily avoidable mistakes.

[TheIronMaiden]

I understand how folks can disagree with the ANDP's platform. That said, if they want the UCP to return to the center, then the only way to correct the conservative party in Alberta is to vote against them. The NDP has had four years to reassess what Alberta voters want, and they are undeniably branding themselves as a different party than four years ago, same will be said about the UCP.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

I don't even think it's really a matter of strategically voting in an attempt to incentivize the UCP to move towards a more moderate position for future elections, it's legitimately a matter of voting for the other guys in an attempt to avoid a complete disaster. I don't think I'm exaggerating.

[Fuzz]

The UCP, as a traditional Conservative party, is dead. If the UCP lose, They'll punt Smith, but the party and it's mechanizations have already been taken over by the far right. I don't think there is any going back on that. If Smith wins, it'll be the next election before any home of punting her, and the party will be even more established. The only hope is a new party to the left of the UCP. Anyone holding out hope for the UCP to get fixed is going to be disappointed.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

The argument with Slava on this stuff just... how is it difficult to understand that "yeah, but the UCP is even worse! Look at how terrible the UCP is at the same thing you criticized the NDP for" is not a counterargument to "both of these are bad options"?

In any other circumstance, refusing to vote for an NDP still run by the same Rachel Notley who presided over the power purchase contracts debacle would be totally reasonable. As would refusing to vote for either party. It's only in this narrow circumstance where you simply have to vote for them because the other option is utterly and completely non-viable and must be prevented from being given a mandate to run the province that a vote for this NDP becomes a necessity. There's absolutely a centrist, or conservative, place to stand politically where you're not completely insane but you're holding your nose while you vote NDP because the "Take Back Alberta" UCP is going to be orders of magnitude worse than the NDP was last time.

All that said, I have quite a bit of optimism the Notley NDP will be better this time and won't make dumb, easily avoidable mistakes.

I honestly don't think that my position is that outlandish and there's not a possible chance that I'm the only thinking this. I will probably end up voting for the socialists because there's no other choice, but I also fully expect that I'll regret that.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The UCP, as a traditional Conservative party, is dead. If the UCP lose, They'll punt Smith, but the party and it's mechanizations have already been taken over by the far right. I don't think there is any going back on that. If Smith wins, it'll be the next election before any home of punting her, and the party will be even more established. The only hope is a new party to the left of the UCP. Anyone holding out hope for the UCP to get fixed is going to be disappointed.

I don't know that I agree that it's impossible for the UCP to change course, especially if they lose this election. But I think it's probably easier to fix what's wrong with the NDP at this point than to fix what's wrong with the UCP, from the perspective of creating a mostly centrist option that represents the majority of Albertans, while ignoring the extremes.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Slava

I honestly don't think that my position is that outlandish and there's not a possible chance that I'm the only thinking this. I will probably end up voting for the socialists because there's no other choice, but I also fully expect that I'll regret that.

You’re gonna use the Smitty Bucks to justify labelling the UCP as socialists aren’t you? Nice try Slava.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by Slava

I honestly don't think that my position is that outlandish and there's not a possible chance that I'm the only thinking this. I will probably end up voting for the socialists because there's no other choice, but I also fully expect that I'll regret that.

It may be outlandish, but it's also not rare which is why I think it's baffling to a lot of us. Majority of people I know think that the UCP are still a bastion of financial responsibility, and they would never vote for the NDP "after what they did to ruin Alberta". All this DESPITE overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and I mean evidence almost every damn day. I also can't figure out how Alberta was ruined by the NDP, people complain more about their lives now than they did when UCP first started.

When I point out that the UCP is spending more than the NDP did.... the response is "ya, but they balanced the budget and have a surplus" or "well, it's just an election year, so of course".... none of those are good reasons for anything, and the first isn't even of their own doing. It's not like the were financially responsible to balance that budget.

[Cain]

Man, if both parties actually spend roughly the same amount of money, you'd be crazy to not vote for the "socialists" as at least in theory that money would be used to help people as a whole.

[Flames0910]

Ya I don't think anyone is arguing that the NDP is a bastion of fiscal prudence and conservatism. But they're not nearly as terrible at economic measures as the UCP make them out to be.

The UCP on the other hand is about as bad as it gets. Literally pissing away an oil boom giving away a million here and a billion there without any semblance of a real plan. They are coasting on the halo of past AB conservative parties but they're not that party anymore.

Slava: If you are truly basing your vote on fiscal conservatism, I hope you and others like you can swallow your pride, ignore the left-ist mob (remember there are extreme voices on your side of the political divide too) and make a pragmatic choice on election day.

The UCP talks about the NDP bringing us to economic ruin, but four more years of the UCP's boutique credits, incompetent management and plain old meanness will truly set this province down a dangerous road.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Slava

I honestly don't think that my position is that outlandish and there's not a possible chance that I'm the only thinking this. I will probably end up voting for the socialists because there's no other choice, but I also fully expect that I'll regret that.

I think it’s precisely because your position isn’t outlandish that you get so many people discussing/arguing with you because everyone is having this conversation with family and co-workers.

So here you are the representative for the political orphans that will determine Calgary. So you get to bear the brunt of the frustration of peoples cognitive dissonance when assessing the UCP and NDP.