CWHL to discontinue operations

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by fundmark19

And the way to get paid is have a marketing machine of the NHL behind them for best chance of long term survival. Just like the NBA. How many female pro leagues have come and gone in the last 10 years now? You can't grow without stability

You can't sustain (or grow) a league if people aren't interested. The NHL could spend a billion dollars marketing a women's pro league and you still would not get more that 500 fans at a game and 1000 people watching on TV.

The NHL would be better of creating a women's baseball league; you'd probably get more viewership.

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by transplant99

The first bolded IS a handout if it is not being purchased. Thats OK as long as there is some sort of return down the line and the NHL can see a benefit to do doing so long term. That may or may not be the case, but it's completely unfair to expect them too.....just because.

I can easily see a minimum budget of 1.5 - 2 million a year per team for expenses. How much of that would come back to the investors for the first few years?

It's a stretch to call that handouts. It would surely be part of a business plan where the league thinks they can build something. If they start something they are obviously looking at an ROI down the line. Plenty of businesses start knowing they will be in the red for x period of time. Again, no one is "expecting" them to do anything. Bettman has pretty much said they WILL do something if there are no other leagues around.

That's what some of you are having trouble with...none of these ladies is expecting or demanding anything. They are making their play to try to clear the way for something the NHL is interested in but the broke, mismanaged league that is waiting out for a fantasy of being scooped up by the NHL needs to die.

They are NOT expecting the NHL to start up a 20 team league in NHL rinks for 82 games a year and high salaries. It would be a slow burn no doubt.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by BigFlameDog

They are not or could they force this...Bettman has all but said they want to get involved with women's hockey but won't as long as there are leagues operating. Yes, they are trying to kill the dying league to try to open the NHL door.

You're contradicting yourself in claiming both that they cannot force the demise of the NWHL while agreeing that they are trying to cause the demise of the NWHL.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by fundmark19

And the way to get paid is have a marketing machine of the NHL behind them for best chance of long term survival. Just like the NBA. How many female pro leagues have come and gone in the last 10 years now? You can't grow without stability

It's not the marketing machine they are after as a primary goal. It's the revenue the NHL already generates. The expectation is that some of the money the men generate be given over to them.

That being said, CroFlames - you dramatically underestimate the weight the NHL's ability to market could carry. A WNHL won't be drawing 6000+ on average like the WNBA does, but the credibility alone would very likely bring interest higher than present. Not enough to be independently sustainable, however, but improved.

[fundmark19]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

It's not the marketing machine they are after as a primary goal. It's the revenue the NHL already generates. The expectation is that some of the money the men generate be given over to them.

That being said, CroFlames - you dramatically underestimate the weight the NHL's ability to market could carry. A WNHL won't be drawing 6000+ on average like the WNBA does, but the credibility alone would very likely bring interest higher than present. Not enough to be independently sustainable, however, but improved.

There are ways to try the concept though rather than just saying it is impossible for it to work. Hold a season ticket drive. See if the markets selected have interest in a team and interest in the NHL using their power, resources and money to make a go for a women's league. My continued point is there should be an effort to try at the very least.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by fundmark19

There are ways to try the concept though rather than just saying it is impossible for it to work. Hold a season ticket drive. See if the markets selected have interest in a team and interest in the NHL using their power, resources and money to make a go for a women's league. My continued point is there should be an effort to try at the very least.

They did try. It did not go well.

[fundmark19]

Originally Posted by Locke

They did try. It did not go well.

Sorry the NHL should try it. "They" that failed were athletes trying to create a professional sport to further the growth of the women's game. Not the heads of an international billion dollar business.

Who has a better chance at opening a successful coffee franchise that specializes in Iced Coffee? Someone who loves Iced Coffee or Starbucks?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by fundmark19

Sorry the NHL should try it. "They" that failed were athletes trying to create a professional sport to further the growth of the women's game. Not the heads of an international billion dollar business.

While I'm sure the NHL will once the players successfully destroy the NWHL, you haven't answered the basic question: Why should the NHL try? What entitles anyone to have the NHL create a league for them?

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by fundmark19

That’s not how kids are wired. Exact quote from my daughter this week who is 5 “dad why do you only watch guys baseball?” My response “I watch girls as well. Would you like me to turn on a girls game?” One click we are watching ncaa softball tournament. Now she is fired up about going to baseball 2 nights a week because she thinks she can play by Disney World at UCF

I don’t want to answer the question “why can’t I play in the nhl?” “Well hunny it all comes down to economics and a group of billionaires didn’t want to take a chance at growing their sport.” Why are we ok with still not trying to create equality for future generations. There is a lot wrong with NCAA and even with Title IX but at least they are doing something to create equality in sport at their highest level. It wouldn’t be that hard for the NHL to do something similar.

Nba stepped up to do it and it’s time for the NHL

If you're looking for a way for you and your daughter to be able to consistently watch women's hockey on TV I would suggest buying a broadcast subscription to CanadaWest TV. You can stream it from your computer to your TV. It's an 8 team league that plays some high level hockey and your daughter can also look up to the women playing full time sports in addition to being students. You can also go to MRU and U of C games for relatively cheap. The broadcast pass also will let her watch women's basketball and volleyball as well.

[fundmark19]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

While I'm sure the NHL will once the players successfully destroy the NWHL, you haven't answered the basic question: Why should the NHL try? What entitles anyone to have the NHL create a league for them?

Grow the game domestically and internationally. They want to negotiate better Olympic agreements controlling two sports is better than just one.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by fundmark19

Grow the game domestically and internationally. They want to negotiate better Olympic agreements controlling two sports is better than just one.

They might also figure they simply can do a better job and make it profitable.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by fundmark19

Grow the game domestically and internationally. They want to negotiate better Olympic agreements controlling two sports is better than just one.

Even if Olympic agreements were the main catalyst for the NHL to get involved in women's hockey, I don't believe their ownership of a League would have any effect. As it stands and as far as the IOC is concerned the NHL does not even control one sport so long as the IIHF continues to operate. The NHL's anticipated for influence in women's hockey would hardly move the needle in any Olympic negotiations.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by fundmark19

Grow the game domestically and internationally. They want to negotiate better Olympic agreements controlling two sports is better than just one.

If the NHL actually wants to grow the game and make money, they should run a women's league in China. Setting one up in NA won't create any new hockey fans or generate any new dollars. I would think Canada is already saturated as a hockey market. In China, at least there is some upside.

[fundmark19]

Cwhl had a team in China using those contacts could make a lot of sense. They could also go full blown international league. The possibilities are endless for what they could do. I’m not arguing to tell them how to make it profitable for them I’m arguing that they have the best chance to make the league survive and thrive and feel they should make it part of their mandate.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by fundmark19

Cwhl had a team in China using those contacts could make a lot of sense. They could also go full blown international league. The possibilities are endless for what they could do. I’m not arguing to tell them how to make it profitable for them I’m arguing that they have the best chance to make the league survive and thrive and feel they should make it part of their mandate.

i think this is the part that people are having trouble with...

why should the NHL make it their mandate? the NHL is a for profit business; there needs to be a solid business case for the NHL to get involved imo.

the attendance numbers for both leagues have been previously posted... is there really any money to be made here? More teams, means more travel, more travel means more costs and more costs are ultimately passed onto the consumers...

i mean, how much were tickets for the CWHL? If they couldn't get more than 400 ppl per game at that price, I am not sure why they ought to expect more people at a higher price?

[fundmark19]

Maybe I have been sucked down the rabbit hole of social responsibility too much. The right thing to do is offer an opportunity for women to compete at the highest level. NBA/WNBA does it NWSL/MLS has partnerships NCAA has title IX Europe Soccer pro leagues have a club model with women squads now that is growing every year.

The NBA has even gone as far as saying they want 50% of ref & coaching hires to be female in the near future. Will this happen? Probably not but at least they are talking and have a foundation to build off of.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by fundmark19

Maybe I have been sucked down the rabbit hole of social responsibility too much. The right thing to do is offer an opportunity for women to compete at the highest level. NBA/WNBA does it NWSL/MLS has partnerships NCAA has title IX Europe Soccer pro leagues have a club model with women squads now that is growing every year.

The NBA has even gone as far as saying they want 50% of ref & coaching hires to be female in the near future. Will this happen? Probably not but at least they are talking and have a foundation to build off of.

but nothing is stopping women from having that opportunity is there?

they've started two leagues, one of which is still in business as far as i know.

i know someone will twist my words, but the people that need to start supporting women's sport is women. They make up half the population... Every major league started from nothing; people went to watch because they enjoyed the product...

[N-E-B]

They do have an opportunity to play professionally. Fundmark is trying to say this is an issue of gender equality, when it’s actually just a business decision. These women already have a professional league to play in. They want more money, which I don’t blame them for wanting, but I don’t think anyone is obligated to give it to them. The interest isn’t there and I really don’t think the NHL pumping money into this thing is going to make a game that averages less than 200 people per game suddenly take off and be financially viable. These women have to start marketing their game and growing it themselves, then when it’s taking off they can come to the NHL and ask about a partnership.

[fundmark19]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

They do have an opportunity to play professionally. Fundmark is trying to say this is an issue of gender equality, when it’s actually just a business decision. These women already have a professional league to play in. They want more money, which I don’t blame them for wanting, but I don’t think anyone is obligated to give it to them. The interest isn’t there and I really don’t think the NHL pumping money into this thing is going to make a game that averages less than 200 people per game suddenly take off and be financially viable. These women have to start marketing their game and growing it themselves, then when it’s taking off they can come to the NHL and ask about a partnership.

You mean exactly like women’s professional basketball before the nba stepped up and created the WNBA? Fans won’t support something if they know it isn’t going to last. Look at all the lacrosse leagues that have come and gone. The most stable Nll teams were the ones that were owned by NHL or NBA franchises. This has become a model of success for ownership groups.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by fundmark19

Grow the game domestically and internationally. They want to negotiate better Olympic agreements controlling two sports is better than just one.

"Growing the game" is not the NHL's mandate. Growing its business is. Also, a women's pro league doesn't move the needle on international growth in the slightest. So the key question remains unanswered: how does operating a women's pro league grow the NHL's business? And further unanswered is why the women should be entitled to an NHL-run league.

And as far as the Olympics goes, if the IOC didn't budge when the NHL pulled the men out of their tournament, it's not going to care about the women either. The IOC wants control over all aspects of its event and brand. That is a fundamental issue that this hypothetical would not change in the slightest.