Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Parallex

No, it's not... it's zero. I'll explain...

I feel like the City hasn't done a good job defining "public" (which I think, annoyingly, is deliberate). When Nenshi and council talk about "Public benefit for Public dollars" I feel they're using the term "public benefit" to mean either a revenue stream that nets out to ≥ 0 for the city or that provides a public service (a service provided by a public body).

The thing is, by that standard, anything done by private enterprise is not a public service by definition. The revenue-stream standard is also the wrong tool for the job, because what is good for the financial statements of the Corporation of the City of Calgary is not necessarily the same thing that provides the most benefit to the city's residents.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Locke

I know. And this is the problem. Its like theres only two ways, the Public way and the Private way and Co-Operation has been eliminated.

It is clearly going to sit like this until one side or the other feels a sense of urgency to get it done.

The Flames aren't hurting that badly that they can't just wait until an Olympic decision comes down.

[RM14]

Vancouver claims $22,000,000 annual impact from BC Place from sources outside the province.

http://www.bcbudget.gov.bc.ca/2016/s...ency/pavco.pdf
Broken link now, BC Gov't removed the document.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by rage2

Bring back CalgaryNEXT.

Vic Park is not something that CSEC wants, so they're going to play as hardball as possible with their wants. Vic Park does not solve their Stamps problem, and does not really give them an opportunity for additional revenue potentials.

Let them buy the West Village land and then they can do whatever they want with it.

The city doesn't want NEXT, they definitely don't want it on the West Village site. Since it's their land being bandied about, what CSEC wants in regards to location doesn't matter.

And why would they get more opportunities for revenue? They don't own anything to be developed where NEXT was. Or should the city just give it to them, too?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Then again, if there's no incentive to pay for your own infrastructure, why bother changing it.

Exactly. Cities have to start changing their business model for them, and what better start than a 1.4mil population Canadian city that's rabid for hockey.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

The thing is, by that standard, anything done by private enterprise is not a public service by definition.

... and they aren't. Are fry cooks at McDonald's Public Servants? Private enterprise is by name private not public.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Let them buy the West Village land and then they can do whatever they want with it.

The city doesn't want NEXT, they definitely don't want it on the West Village site. Since it's their land being bandied about, what CSEC wants in regards to location doesn't matter.

And why would they get more opportunities for revenue? They don't own anything to be developed where NEXT was. Or should the city just give it to them, too?

The only way CalgaryNEXT happens is if CSEC buys all the land, and outs in 100% of the money.

[Jimdon]

I can only speak for what i personally experience/contribute but over the last year and a half I have made 3 trips to Edmonton to watch concerts and events because Calgary does not have a facility suitable to host them. That's 1 or 2 days worth of hotels, restaurants, tickets, merch and booze that I spent outside of Calgary because of our lack of a building. For every one of these events I didn't go alone, and I met lots of others from Calgary doing the same thing. How this lost business revenue has no value or benefit to Nenshi or the city is ridiculous and pure posturing on their part.

That being said, Edwards unwillingness to pay his part for a building in a city he's already abandoned is just as frustrating. It feels like trying to compromise with two children who both refuse to share.

At this point it feels like the best we can hope for is for Edwards to sell the team to someone who is willing to pay their share for a new arena and Nenshi to do the same.

[transplant99]

Pretty timely piece from the Herald on the hit business owners have taken from all levels of government and the tax increase (me not critical thinking one more time) from the city.

Its really ugly for some.

http://calgaryherald.com/business/lo...stop-piling-on

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Pretty timely piece from the Herald on the hit business owners have taken from all levels of government and the tax increase (me not critical thinking one more time) from the city.

Its really ugly for some.

http://calgaryherald.com/business/lo...stop-piling-on

Wow...

"In October, Alberta’s minimum wage jumped to $13.60 an hour, the second step in the province’s plan to bring it to $15 an hour by next October. Businesses surveyed expect to pay 22 per cent more next year for staffing than they did in 2016.

Due to those rising costs, 55 per cent of businesses surveyed reported having to lay off minimum wage staff due to the increases, with 36 per cent suggesting they’ll likely have to resort to layoffs when it reaches the $15 mark."

Sounds like service in Calgary is going to be awesome......

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Pretty timely piece from the Herald on the hit business owners have taken from all levels of government and the tax increase (me not critical thinking one more time) from the city.

Its really ugly for some.

http://calgaryherald.com/business/lo...stop-piling-on

Is this a joke? Unquestioningly posting the business lobby's propaganda report where they survey themselves about how bad things are is the definition of not using your critical faculties.

If things are so bad and anti-business in Calgary then why was it the metropolitan area with the highest economic growth in the whole country this year?

Why would you faithfully trot out the basest argument that a council that raises property taxes has to be anti business? You can only be business friendly if you cut taxes? That's hilariously wrong and simple minded.

[transplant99]

Lol

[Fuzz]

The NHL should setup an "arena" fund where every year they hand it out to one team. So every 31 years, a team can expect, maybe $200 million. They can use it for renovation, or contribution to a new arena, or hold it until they are ready if they don't "need" a new arena at that point. At least make some of it predictable.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Pretty timely piece from the Herald on the hit business owners have taken from all levels of government and the tax increase (me not critical thinking one more time) from the city.

Its really ugly for some.

http://calgaryherald.com/business/lo...stop-piling-on

Regardless of whether minimum wage hikes have affected the ability to sustain workers at the bottom end of the salary spectrum, I'm not sure how that justifies subsidizing those that pay the salaries of those on the extreme top end.

Despite whatever else is going on, giving the Flames hundreds of millions of dollars is not going to create a "pro business" market. My small business will never get that type of treatment, and neither will anybody else. In fact, giving the Flames money just takes away City/Province revenue that will have to come from elsewhere...likely via taxes from the rest of us.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by Jimdon

I can only speak for what i personally experience/contribute but over the last year and a half I have made 3 trips to Edmonton to watch concerts and events because Calgary does not have a facility suitable to host them. That's 1 or 2 days worth of hotels, restaurants, tickets, merch and booze that I spent outside of Calgary because of our lack of a building. For every one of these events I didn't go alone, and I met lots of others from Calgary doing the same thing. How this lost business revenue has no value or benefit to Nenshi or the city is ridiculous and pure posturing on their part.

That being said, Edwards unwillingness to pay his part for a building in a city he's already abandoned is just as frustrating. It feels like trying to compromise with two children who both refuse to share.

At this point it feels like the best we can hope for is for Edwards to sell the team to someone who is willing to pay their share for a new arena and Nenshi to do the same.

I don't really get this "both sides" argument. The City wants a new arena and even made a proposal for a new arena. They have always been at the negotiating table, albeit, with a firm negotiating stance.

Almost everyone recognizes the need in Calgary for a new arena for both the Flames and other events. I also believe that almost everyone, including the City, recognizes that there is a public benefit to having a new arena even though the benefits aren't necessarily tangible to the public. Like an art installation, new sky scraper or public library, a new arena would add to the culture and overall well-being of the City.

The question then becomes how much is a reasonable amount for the City and the Calgary taxpayers to pay for something that may slightly improve the quality of life and the overall health of Calgary while all of the tangible benefits go to a privately owned, for-profit business? I don't know what that magic number is.

What I do know is that the Flames position during this whole period has been borderline shameful. From their arrogant strutting for 10 years about how great the new arena would be, to their lousy CalgaryNext proposal, to getting Bettman to issue a not-so-veiled threat, to publicly and loudly wading into the election, to walking away from the table when they didn't get their way.

One side, the City, is negotiating like they're supposed to, albeit it seems like they're negotiating 'hard' and Nenshi has been condescending in his public and likely private comments. The other side has screwed this up at every turn and then thrown a temper tantrum.

This will not get fixed unless the Flames clean up their act. They either need a new strategy or a new group spearheading this.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

I don't really get this "both sides" argument. The City wants a new arena and even made a proposal for a new arena. They have always been at the negotiating table, albeit, with a firm negotiating stance.
....

This will not get fixed unless the Flames clean up their act. They either need a new strategy or a new group spearheading this.

Totally agree, people keep trotting out the "both sides, many sides" and "the truth is somewhere in the middle" platitudes but that couldn't be farther than the truth.

[Inglewood Jack]

this week DGB spits truth at Francis, nice to see especially when he acknowledges that they both write for SN...

Even if the Flames really are eying a move and trying to send warning signals to their fans before it's too late, this ground has just been trod too many times. NHL fans have heard this before—in Pittsburgh, in New Jersey, in Raleigh, and in just about every market that ever wanted a new area and didn't get it right away. It's a game that's playing out to varying degrees right now in Ottawa, Brooklyn, and (as always) Arizona. Once those situations are resolved, it will be someone else's turn.

And that gets exhausting. The Flames aren't going anywhere unless this whole situation is misplayed by all sides so badly that it goes completely off the rails, and they'll end up with a new arena that will be partly funded by taxpayers. And within a few years, most of us will have forgotten all about this.

Most, but not all. Because you have to wonder how many diehard Flames fans, who've been with the team through good times and bad, are feeling just a little less enthusiasm for the team right now. The NHL is a business, as we're constantly reminded. But it's a business that charges a lot of money for an inconsistent product, and that means it relies on an awful lot of loyalty. Putting even a fraction of that at risk is a dangerous game.

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/articl...nd-espos-night

[getbak]

Hey, at least we don't have Melnyk as the owner: http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/o...-disaster-yes/

On the eve of the grandest celebration in modern Ottawa Senators history — what Eugene Melnyk predicted would be “the greatest outdoor game to date” — the owner of the National Hockey League team brought up the idea of moving his franchise.

“I’m not going to blow a lifetime of working hard to support a hockey team. It’s not gonna happen,” Melnyk said at Parliament Hill, prior to puck drop on the Senators alumni game.

“The bigger question is whether I’m prepared to blow all that money I made over many years in a different industry in a different country.

“How long can you underwrite a team?”

The 58-year-old Melnyk is the sole owner, governor and chairman of the Senators and one of the top 100 wealthiest people in Canada.

Melnyk vehemently denied rumours that he is looking for a buyers or equity investors in his team, which is struggling financially and, so far this season, on the ice.

“It just won’t happen. It’s a franchise. Imagine if you own a McDonald’s franchise, but you can move it. Why would you sell it? It’s something that’s very difficult to buy,” said Melnyk, prior to watching an all-Senators alumni game.

[Parallex]

Murray Edwards: Everyone thinks I'm the biggest ####heel owner in the NHL
Melnyk: Hold my beer

[Mr.Coffee]

I honestly don’t blame these owners one bit for feeling the way they do, that they don’t want to blow their fortunes on these extreme luxury hobby investments. If I had the kind of wealth they do and were in their position I would feel the same way.

But don’t make your bad investment the public’s bad investment. Don’t try to take advantage of the fans.

It’s been said many times but the pro sports business model is broken and has been proven as such. If you can’t afford to build the stadium without at least ponying up the lions share, then why are you paying your employees millions of dollars a year?

Feels like a reckoning is coming for this business model and the NHL players. How the cap is rising is beyond me with so many alleged struggling markets. So if they aren’t struggling why the need for the public purse? Why the need to keep your books confidential?

Either the business model is broken and they need to fix it or it isn’t and they don’t need such a massive handout. But again why is their poor investment our problem? Can the city bail me out of my bad investments too? Even if it serves the public but on a smaller scale? It’s just all so weird.