Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

This is all bunk. you have no idea how CSEC operates with their partners, the City of Calgary. If you think it is true show proof, or go work for CNN

No proof is necessary. If it is associated in any way with the Calgary Flames, it automatically sucks. It is known.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

This is all bunk. you have no idea how CSEC operates with their partners, the City of Calgary. If you think it is true show proof, or go work for CNN

Well you can assume based on motivation until evidence says otherwise.

CSEC is profit driven, and that is the entire point of the arena. They want more boxes and more $$ seats and amenities.

They now are investing a lot of cash to get these items, only reasonable to assume they will want to leverage that cash against the public dollar and influence the design as much as possible to obtain the greatest gain to them

This is a reasonable assumption, backed by their actions (i.e. CalgaryNEXT proposed financing model and design/incorporation into the area).

Is it 100% guaranteed to be correct? No, but until we have more data its hardly something to come down on someone given its a fair shot?

[cowtown75]

Well one good thing is that the price of lumber has gone down. Not sure about steel.

[GhostCookie]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

Wasn't trying to defend the oiler deal.

My point was king king making fun of the length of the oiler agreement negotiations and how public it was, only to come out with the joke that was Calgary next. Then taking even longer for the flames agreement to finally coming about and having it just as public with the same relocation threats and everything else.

It was enjoyable to follow, was all I was saying.

I'm with you on this. As a Calgarian, I was able to look at the Edmonton deal and turn my nose up at it. It was not a wonderful deal for Edmonton, they took on a ton of debt, and the Oilers payment towards it is pretty much just an agreement to keep paying rent for a few decades, as a lot of their payment is baked into their lease. Then CalgaryNext came out, and it was an absolute kick in the balls. Even if you didn't have balls, you looked at the deal and said "ow, my balls!". It was the picture of entitled business explaining to the public that it was planning on making the public pay them just to stay in business. And my own desire to see a new arena was tamped down harder when the negative reaction led to the roundabout threats of leaving. If your response to the taxpayers not wanting to hand you over everything for nothing is to threaten to leave, then I would rather say goodbye to the team I love than give them what they demand. With how much the league gets for expansion fees, if there are any cities that are willing to pony up the cash, why would the NHL care to forego that cash to let Flames ownership move the team to a new market with no guarantees. Further to that, what city is so desperate for an NHL team that it will take on a half billion dollar taxpayer funded arena to get one.

I have very little doubts as to how the Flames as an organization see this city, and wouldn't trust them for a second to not make the choice that maximizes profits, no matter what the cost is to the city or its residents, ie. their fans.

[carmenshoes]

Just curious who’s buying the flames to keep them here if they can’t get an arena deal that Edwards and co would be happy with?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by carmenshoes

Just curious who’s buying the flames to keep them here if they can’t get an arena deal that Edwards and co would be happy with?

Shaws, Southerns, Mannix, Werklund, or maybe Brad's Dad?

Or some rich people in Sask or BC or anywhere for that matter. Jim Pattison owned the Calgary Cowboys. Chip Wilson is a U of C alumni.

The teams in the east are neither cheap nor available. It's an exclusive club...there's only one way to find out who might want to join.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Shaws, Southerns, Mannix, Werklund, or maybe Brad's Dad?

Or some rich people in Sask or BC or anywhere for that matter. Jim Pattison owned the Calgary Cowboys. Chip Wilson is a U of C alumni.

The teams in the east are neither cheap nor available. It's an exclusive club...there's only one way to find out who might want to join.

I could see Joyce or Riddell being interested as well.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I could see Joyce or Riddell being interested as well.

Riddell was a Flames owner and died a few years ago. Not sure what happened to his stake. 4 kids, so the fortune is probably a bit diluted

Elder Joyce is also dead, but only 2 sons (one of whom faced sexual assault allegations in 2015)...


It's been a while since a Canadian franchise changed ownership:

WPG - 2011

EDM - 2008

VAN - 2004-2006ish

OTT - 2003

TOR - 2011ish, but complicated and Tannebaum was involved since the mid 90s

MTL - A bit complicated, but hasn't really been 'for sale' for a long time (in/out of Molsons)


We know there is a keen ownership group in Quebec, but there could be plenty of other interested parties. Brett Wilson has a minority stake in the Predators...I imagine there are a few other Canadians who would be keen to buy-in. If it came down to keeping the team in town, I could see the Haskaynes stepping up.

It also wouldn't have to be a full ~$500M, but 50.1% of it. Of course, it's all moo at this point.

[GioforPM]

The question though is whether anyone wants to buy the Flames but not move them into a new arena, or build one on their own. I think that is a tall order.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

It also wouldn't have to be a full ~$500M, but 50.1% of it. Of course, it's all moo at this point.

Why only 50.1%? If the existing owners want to sell, they are most unlikely to accept an offer that would leave them stuck with a minority stake in a wasting asset.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by carmenshoes

Just curious who’s buying the flames to keep them here if they can’t get an arena deal that Edwards and co would be happy with?

Edwards could simply choose to move them to Houston, he doesn’t have to sell them.


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[RM14]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Edwards could simply choose to move them to Houston, he doesn’t have to sell them.

I don't think "simply" is the right word. The NHL has always prioritized finding new local owners before allowing a relocation. Also, a relocation fee would be hundreds of millions anyways.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Edwards could simply choose to move them to Houston, he doesn’t have to sell them.


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I find it hilarious that you believe Edwards and fertitta could coexist in an arena owned by Fertitta.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by RM14

Also, a relocation fee would be hundreds of millions anyways.

Why do you assume this? The last relocation fee, I believe, was $60 million to move the Atlanta Thrashers to Winnipeg.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Why do you assume this? The last relocation fee, I believe, was $60 million to move the Atlanta Thrashers to Winnipeg.

I don't see the NHL owners giving up the Houston marlet for $60MM. A lot has changed in 10 years with the major succuss of Vegas and Seattle.

[GioforPM]

I think I read the next relocation fee will be over $100M.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by RM14

I don't see the NHL owners giving up the Houston marlet for $60MM. A lot has changed in 10 years with the major succuss of Vegas and Seattle.

From all I've heard, the league has no plans to expand beyond 32 teams. That partly accounts for the high prices they were able to get from Vegas and Seattle: everybody knew it was the last kick at the expansion can.

If they're not expanding, the only way into the Houston market is by relocation; so the owners are not ‘giving up’ anything. They can only charge whatever relocation fee the market will bear.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think I read the next relocation fee will be over $100M.

Since nobody knows when or where the next relocation will occur, how could they possibly know what the fee will be? It's all idle speculation at this point.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

From all I've heard, the league has no plans to expand beyond 32 teams. That partly accounts for the high prices they were able to get from Vegas and Seattle: everybody knew it was the last kick at the expansion can.

If they're not expanding, the only way into the Houston market is by relocation; so the owners are not ‘giving up’ anything. They can only charge whatever relocation fee the market will bear.



Since nobody knows when or where the next relocation will occur, how could they possibly know what the fee will be? It's all idle speculation at this point.

Well, we know how much they demanded to relocate the Coyotes, and it was more than the Thrashers. They are required to use economic experts to assess the fee. And it may be speculation, but it ain’t idle:

https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/...s-on-thin-ice/

[Gundo]

I was in a construction meeting about the arena last week. It’s going ahead people, this is just part of the process.

[CgyFlamesftw]

Originally Posted by Gundo

I was in a construction meeting about the arena last week. It’s going ahead people, this is just part of the process.

Can confirm, I as well work for one of the GC’s. It’s all but sealed just few minor details. And the construction end date is staying the same. 6 months behind schedule however so that will be a challenge.