Why Canada’s recycling industry is in crisis mode

[gasman]

Originally Posted by GGG

My thought was that the incremental energy required to produce plastic packaging is very low becuase it is effectively a waste stream from the oil and gas industry. So you already spent CO2 getting the product so only the incremental CO2 would be spent. I’m thinking CO2 intensity rather than other issues like micro plastics.

So if the cardboard is recycled I think it makes sense that cardboard is the right choice.

Is cardboard a waste stream from pulp and paper or do trees get harvested to produce cardboard?

I'm not sure your assertion that plastic is made from waste is fully correct or at least genuine. While it is true that the feedstock for polyethylene and polypropylene, are ethane and propane respectively, and they are produced during the refining of fuels, to assert that plastics are made from a waste product is not quite genuine.

The bulk of plastics (polyethylene and polypropylene) are made from NGL feed stock that produced from wells that don't produce any fluid that would go near a refinery that was processing oil. That is, companies drill to produce high volumes of Ethane and Propane, they aren't really byproducts.

*edit* Naptha is also used for some types of plastic, so it's probably fair to say that some plastics are made from refinery waste, but not all.

[Fuzz]

The Gasman knows...

[Matata]

It's crazy how long people have clung to using single use plastics. Pretty much everyone knows that most plastics really don't break down, but go to any coffee shop and pretty much no one is using a reusable mug, same for grocery stores and reusable bags. There's a lot ways people can drastically reduce their consumption with just a tiny effort that they just can't be bothered with.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Matata

It's crazy how long people have clung to using single use plastics. Pretty much everyone knows that most plastics really don't break down, but go to any coffee shop and pretty much no one is using a reusable mug, same for grocery stores and reusable bags. There's a lot ways people can drastically reduce their consumption with just a tiny effort that they just can't be bothered with.

Exactly, which is why putting something into law and enforcing a ban is a good idea. People have alternatives that are reasonably cheap and convenient, but plastic is so ubiquitious.

[Fuzz]

My wife bought those mesh veggie bags, but I found they accelerated wilting 3-5 fold, and we ended up throwing out more veggies than we ate. Anyone else have luck with these? The cabbage was wilted to the core in 5 days, and usually you can store it for a month in a plastic bag.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

My wife bought those mesh veggie bags, but I found they accelerated wilting 3-5 fold, and we ended up throwing out more veggies than we ate. Anyone else have luck with these? The cabbage was wilted to the core in 5 days, and usually you can store it for a month in a plastic bag.

https://www.thegoodtrade.com/feature...ithout-plastic

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

https://www.thegoodtrade.com/feature...ithout-plastic

Hrrrm,,, ok I don't really see a good option there, other than if these:


https://www.amazon.com/Vejibag-Reusa.../dp/B00S9NDPES


perform as they claim.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Hrrrm,,, ok I don't really see a good option there, other than if these:


https://www.amazon.com/Vejibag-Reusa.../dp/B00S9NDPES


perform as they claim.

Yeah... There is a reason why plastic bags are ubiquitous they are extremely effective. I found that the best strategy is to buy less then I need and trying to eat it right away, but this fits my lifestyle better than others (my walk home from work is past a grocery store, and I only feed myself).

[Fuzz]

We try not to drive much, so only go to the grocery store every week or 2. I much prefer large shopping trips. So having veggies last is kinda strategic for us, usually the cabbage and carrots go to coleslaw when the drawer is getting empty.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

We try not to drive much, so only go to the grocery store every week or 2. I much prefer large shopping trips. So having veggies last is kinda strategic for us, usually the cabbage and carrots go to coleslaw when the drawer is getting empty.

Get a farm share. Veggies last forever. One of the better things the wife and I have signed up for.

[The Yen Man]

My parents friends came back from Japan recently and gave my parents a box of short bread cookies as a souvenir gift. Each cookie was about the size of a ritz cracker, but were all individually wrapped. And it's not just flimsy plastic wrap. It was the fancy thick kind with writing on it. And then the box had the a plastic cubicle which the cookies sat in, plus the box itself, which was then wrapped in another plastic film.

For all the Japanese touting sustainability, they sure do waste a lot on packaging and making things look pretty. And this is just one example. I find most of their snack foods are always bite sized and individually wrapped in excessive plastic.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Matata

It's crazy how long people have clung to using single use plastics. Pretty much everyone knows that most plastics really don't break down, but go to any coffee shop and pretty much no one is using a reusable mug, same for grocery stores and reusable bags. There's a lot ways people can drastically reduce their consumption with just a tiny effort that they just can't be bothered with.

How much do I have to pay not to conserve plastic. What is the cost of a plastic bag or coffee cup pricing in all the externalities?

The moral judgement is interesting, really we should just understand what the real cost of incineration is.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

My parents friends came back from Japan recently and gave my parents a box of short bread cookies as a souvenir gift. Each cookie was about the size of a ritz cracker, but were all individually wrapped. And it's not just flimsy plastic wrap. It was the fancy thick kind with writing on it. And then the box had the a plastic cubicle which the cookies sat in, plus the box itself, which was then wrapped in another plastic film.

For all the Japanese touting sustainability, they sure do waste a lot on packaging and making things look pretty. And this is just one example. I find most of their snack foods are always bite sized and individually wrapped in excessive plastic.

Export quality stuff from Japan is often like that from what I was told. Local stuff often makes an effort to reduce waste. There's also much more awareness of trash as there are very little trash cans around and you have to carry it around waiting for the next garbage bin.

I feel like our system is somehow too complex for some people to understand. If we simplify it to the idea we must burn the excess trash, I think we suddenly have a bigger public push towards a system that eliminates single use plastics.


In Kyoto, I recall the place I stayed at had two collection bags which translated roughly to 1. Incinerate or 2. Clean recyclables. which I think felt way more intuitive. Putting recyclables in incinerate and incinerate items in recyclables supposedly cost you more to throw away garbage.

I recall I had to think twice each time I put anything in the bags other than drink bottles and it seemed weirder/worse knowing wasted organics would be incinerated. It kinda just made me think of whether or not it was a good idea to throw something into a fire pit and stand close by the decision I made for incinerate vs recycle. I seem to recall the only single use plastics I threw into incineration was the plastic on a rice ball (plastic keeps the seaweed crisp and apparently there are no decent alternatives) and chips which bothered me when I put it into that bag. I seem to recall most candies were wax paper (ie: star burst) or a foil paper which seemed ok to incinerate unlike plastic. Rinsed plastic boxes for food and chopsticks seemed correct in recycle vs incinerate.

Another one that I keep thinking back to is the Sun Chips bag. I think the concept was very good, minus the insanely loud noise. I always wondered why they couldn't use a biodegradable glue to attach that material to paper to reduce the noise rather than killing off the concept completely.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by gasman

I'm not sure your assertion that plastic is made from waste is fully correct or at least genuine. While it is true that the feedstock for polyethylene and polypropylene, are ethane and propane respectively, and they are produced during the refining of fuels, to assert that plastics are made from a waste product is not quite genuine.

The bulk of plastics (polyethylene and polypropylene) are made from NGL feed stock that produced from wells that don't produce any fluid that would go near a refinery that was processing oil. That is, companies drill to produce high volumes of Ethane and Propane, they aren't really byproducts.

*edit* Naptha is also used for some types of plastic, so it's probably fair to say that some plastics are made from refinery waste, but not all.

Propane especially is basically a waste product from condensate production, at least in AB. It was selling for $0 wholesale for some time (maybe not anymore due to the export terminal?)

[gasman]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Propane especially is basically a waste product from condensate production, at least in AB. It was selling for $0 wholesale for some time (maybe not anymore due to the export terminal?)

That was some local market economics related to an oversupply over a short period of time (7 months) The price has since rebounded and trades pretty close to it's texas counterpart, Keyera, Pembina and soon Altagas took advantage of the dip to open up new export markets.

I still wouldn't define it as a waste stream, it's probably more accurately described as a by-product, considering that most drilling is likely targeting heavier liquids.

[GGG]

I think a fair question is would it be flared if environmental regulations didn’t require it to be captured. If economically cheaper to burn on site it’s a waste stream if not by-product or product.

[Scorch]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

I find most of their snack foods are always bite sized and individually wrapped in excessive plastic.

That’s normal sized snacking in Japan

Ever brought a Japanese national to a Costco? Their reactions are priceless

[Azure]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I actually applaud this move, at least in regards to straws.

Im just curios how far they will take it. Pill/aspirin type bottles? Plastic cutlery etc?

Stay away from my Q-Tips though ya bastard.

https://nationalpost.com/news/politi...lastics-monday

Awesome news, not only for the pollution side of things, but because Canada is uniquely qualified to take advantage of the boom in non-plastic single use products.

Great to see the government move on this.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Matata

It's crazy how long people have clung to using single use plastics. Pretty much everyone knows that most plastics really don't break down, but go to any coffee shop and pretty much no one is using a reusable mug, same for grocery stores and reusable bags. There's a lot ways people can drastically reduce their consumption with just a tiny effort that they just can't be bothered with.

What is even more insane is that 10 years ago there was a strong push to get rid of grocery bags.

10 years later and we are FINALLY banning single use plastics.

Crazy how slow we move despite the obvious evidence of a problem.