Possible Link Between 3 Murders and 2 Missing Boys in BC

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by 4X4

I'm too lazy to dig up the "What in the F" gif, but seriously, what in the F?

When did music that was written years ago become guilty by association with recent crime? And what do either of those songs have to do with this? Literally the only time in history that radio stations felt necessary to stop playing a song was after Katrina. New Orleans is Sinking got negative one plays after getting zero plays on New Orleans radio stations.

ACDC's I Feel Safe in New York City was shelved after 911.
It's stupid, but theres a segment of people that will complain and get a song pulled because it hits too close to home.
Hell, in the thread about the lion that was shot, someone was upset that it happened near the release date of the new Lion King movie.

[Luder]

Clearly this is a case of too much Fortnite and Marilyn Manson.

Watching the news last night, they were talking to a forensic psychiatrist and of course he mentions that too many violent video games could be a cause for these two idiots to act out their fantasies, yet he fails to mention anything about mental wellness.

I'm pretty sure "Pumped Up Kicks" gets banned in the US for awhile after any major mass shooting.

[Canadianman]

Originally Posted by Luder

...

I'm pretty sure "Pumped Up Kicks" gets banned in the US for awhile after any major mass shooting.

If that were true, it would be permanently banned.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Luder

Clearly this is a case of too much Fortnite and Marilyn Manson.

Watching the news last night, they were talking to a forensic psychiatrist and of course he mentions that too many violent video games could be a cause for these two idiots to act out their fantasies, yet he fails to mention anything about mental wellness.

I'm pretty sure "Pumped Up Kicks" gets banned in the US for awhile after any major mass shooting.

Man we get into cycles about the influence of video games and music, and hey get the easy blame for nutbars like this. Its lazy and stupid.


I remember in the 80's Heavy Metal Rock and Roll was causing the disintegration of the nations youth. In 1985 Judas Priest music caused two people to commit suicide according to the experts. Violent video games caused school shooting, especially games like Doom, and Postal and other violent video games.


Its so fricken lazy, if it was true, the whole head banger movement would have been wiped out by now, and there would have been way more schools shootings because every single kid plays some kind of violent video games.


In the 50's reefer caused teen pregnancy, suicide, murderous impulses and addiction issues.



Its lazy researches latching on to something without taking a look at the underlying causes of a persons suicide or violence. Its lazy parents that don't want to talk to their kids, but certainly don't like their musical choices or their video game choices. Its lazy politicians who know they can capture a voting segment if they can rail against music and video games or movies or TV shows.


These two people were probably f'd up no matter what music or what video games they played.



We're never going to fix anything if we keep taking the lazy and easy path.

[PsYcNeT]

I think as far as 'influences' go, one of the articles briefly mentioned Bryer's father stating that he was always on 'Youtube'. This is probably your smoking gun, as it were.

YouTube is a pretty hefty ideas forum, and ideology spreads fast when teens fall down certain rabbit holes. This isn't a call to censor or regulate, in fact it's the opposite, but parents should really be invested in what their kids are watching, even teenagers.

Like, if you're at the point where your kid starts buying nazi kitch, I think you missed the boat.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Man we get into cycles about the influence of video games and music, and hey get the easy blame for nutbars like this. Its lazy and stupid.


I remember in the 80's Heavy Metal Rock and Roll was causing the disintegration of the nations youth. In 1985 Judas Priest music caused two people to commit suicide according to the experts. Violent video games caused school shooting, especially games like Doom, and Postal and other violent video games.


Its so fricken lazy, if it was true, the whole head banger movement would have been wiped out by now, and there would have been way more schools shootings because every single kid plays some kind of violent video games.


In the 50's reefer caused teen pregnancy, suicide, murderous impulses and addiction issues.



Its lazy researches latching on to something without taking a look at the underlying causes of a persons suicide or violence. Its lazy parents that don't want to talk to their kids, but certainly don't like their musical choices or their video game choices. Its lazy politicians who know they can capture a voting segment if they can rail against music and video games or movies or TV shows.


These two people were probably f'd up no matter what music or what video games they played.



We're never going to fix anything if we keep taking the lazy and easy path.

While I agree with you, what if the role of violent media is actually understated?

I'm not of the belief that either should be restricted in any way, but when someone already has a loosening grip on reality or is dealing with psychological/social issues, violent media is certainly consumed differently than it would be with people who are of sound body and mind. I don't feel it's "THE" reason for these things happening, but I'm sure it's a valid contributing factor, and I'm not sure it's so easy as brushing it off entirely.

You can't just say "if it was true, it would affect this whole group of people." That's being just as lazy.

I think the prevalence of violent media should be looked at seriously. Not by the government, but by parents. People should know what their kids are consuming and realize that young brains (and especially ones dealing with mental issues, though that is not yet known as a factor here) receive information differently than adult brains.

Normalizing violence before young people fully understand context is dangerous.

It's also valid to question society's obsession with glorified violence.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

While I agree with you, what if the role of violent media is actually understated?

I'm not of the belief that either should be restricted in any way, but when someone already has a loosening grip on reality or is dealing with psychological/social issues, violent media is certainly consumed differently than it would be with people who are of sound body and mind. I don't feel it's "THE" reason for these things happening, but I'm sure it's a valid contributing factor, and I'm not sure it's so easy as brushing it off entirely.

You can't just say "if it was true, it would affect this whole group of people." That's being just as lazy.

I think the prevalence of violent media should be looked at seriously. Not by the government, but by parents. People should know what their kids are consuming and realize that young brains (and especially ones dealing with mental issues, though that is not yet known as a factor here) receive information differently than adult brains.

Normalizing violence before young people fully understand context is dangerous.

It's also valid to question society's obsession with glorified violence.

I think if you shift the concept of violent video games/media/music to a symptom instead of a root cause, then it goes to the second part of your post about the role of the parent.


I mean look millions of people listen to heavy metal, play violent games and watch questionable youtube videos and they don't go nuts.


However, if someone becomes obsessed with the above, or starts linking those things into real life ie discussions, then you have to be concerned.



Are there too many parents, guardians etc, that just except it even when their kids start collecting nazi memorabilia, or guns or talking constantly about it, becoming obsessed, or do they just write it off as a phase their going through?


Are too many parents overly reliant on these instant and easy baby sitters?



I mean I feel bad for this father, but he clearly had some insight, ie funeral suit, probably stumbled across Nazi memorabilia.



Look I'm meandering here, and probably badly. But I don't even believe that the concept of banning or censorship is going to work, it actually makes these things more attractive, and with the internet, they're going to get it anyways, there's a monstrous availability of hard core, hard right racist nazi based heavy metal. If people want it, they'll get it no matter what happens, or what the government or police do.


I almost think that the root cause, or the resentment that causes a lot of these crimes is disconnection, their parents or guardians are content with these virtual baby sitters and spend less time with their kids for example, and this leaders to a poor development in not only coping tools, but key social skills that would allow them to make connections at school, work etc.

[Ozy_Flame]

I agree with Cap. Easy to blame identifiable, tangible things that society looks down on as violent, evil, vile, unbecoming, etc.

Instead, it's an extremely complex series of issues that can include (but not limited to) mental illness, physiology and genetics, traumatic childhood experiences, social integration and acceptable behaviors, rules and limit setting, education, etc. And it really is unfortunate to see that it takes a series of major incidents to get people to start taking this seriously, because it is a natural human tendency to only take things seriously as a reaction than proactive strategy.

The "thoughts and prayers" and easy blame strategy is an easy cop-out, as Cap stated. Blame something we can tangibly see.

Mental health and how we engage it as a society is just as big of an issue - if not more - than climate change in the next 100 years, in my opinion.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Most people have enough positive areas of support in their lives, or a natural inclination of empathy to not buy into the stuff that these kids fell into. So yes, its not really a valid excuse or fair to suggest a direct causation between the things they are pertaining were bad influences on these kids that got them to this point.

However, not all humans are wired like that. Its a culmination of nature and nurture, and its really awful when it all comes together in a negative light like this. Kids born with some natural issues that go through traumatic life experiences early on without much positive support in their lives creates the murderers of society.

I don't know much about the father, but I get the impression that he cares, but maybe child development simply wasn't in his skillset. You cant teach what you dont know. He'd have had year to view these developmental issues (it doesn't just creep up overnight)... its not that he didnt care or was completely unaware... I just don't think he comes accross as a skilled parent. Doesn't make him a bad person IMO, maybe just a guy that probably shouldnt have had kids and was in over his head.... and the consequences in this particular case really hurt.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I agree with Cap. Easy to blame identifiable, tangible things that society looks down on as violent, evil, vile, unbecoming, etc.

Instead, it's an extremely complex series of issues that can include (but not limited to) mental illness, physiology and genetics, traumatic childhood experiences, social integration and acceptable behaviors, rules and limit setting, education, etc. And it really is unfortunate to see that it takes a series of major incidents to get people to start taking this seriously, because it is a natural human tendency to only take things seriously as a reaction than proactive strategy.

The "thoughts and prayers" and easy blame strategy is an easy cop-out, as Cap stated. Blame something we can tangibly see.

Mental health and how we engage it as a society is just as big of an issue - if not more - than climate change in the next 100 years, in my opinion.

Right, which is why a lot of pro-gun advocates have issues with people wanting to take away/ban guns. Because it doesn't address the underlying issue.

Again, I'm not saying that glorified violence in media/entertainment is the sole reason or even a cause on it's own. Of course there are other factors. But, to me, should we also stop letting perfect be the enemy of good?

Are we ignoring the negative impact glorified violence has on at-risk individuals just because it's not the "real" issue?

In my opinion, there are four factors that go into this type of violence.
1. The root cause (mental illness, development issues, etc.)
2. Internal catalysts (family dynamics, nuturing methods)
3. External catalysts (media, negative influences)
4. The tool (weapons)

Without all four of these things, the situation simply doesn't happen. So yes, it does not address the root cause to address external catalysts or tools. BUT, that should never ever stop us from looking seriously at these things and at least being aware of the potential detrimental impacts these things can have to at-risk individuals. There is more we can do on a personal level or on a non-restrictive level (i.e. education, resources) to address external cultural factors.

So, again, not saying I'm in favour of government restrictions on media/entertainment, because I'm not. But we shouldn't be so adverse towards the idea of even looking at these things. Just as we're learning more about mental health every day, we're also learning much more about the effects of tv/videogames/violence etc. on growing minds. And, surprise, they're not great.

No reason to put our heads in the sand about anything just because one issue is bigger than another.

[peter12]

Clearly, PepsiFree is on to something. To say that external factors - such as media - have NO effect is obviously wrong.

Online forums like Reddit have been used as platforms to influence hate-inspired killings, why not violent video games?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by peter12

Clearly, PepsiFree is on to something. To say that external factors - such as media - have NO effect is obviously wrong.

Online forums like Reddit have been used as platforms to influence hate-inspired killings, why not violent video games?

People have been running around like redknecks and dressing up in nazi paraphernalia long before violent video games. I really don't see what video games have to do with this incident. It looks like two loner kids who never had proper adult supervision. They developed into violent young adults.

I grew up in the era where young children didn't quite have violent video games. There were always kids who were pushing destructive activities like arson, BB guns, fire crackers too far.

If violent video games were such a problem, you would expect some correlation between violence and the ever increasing access to realistic and violent video games. Instead, you see the opposite. Stories like the one at issue, are always tragic, but far less common than they were 30 years ago.

[Matata]

Originally Posted by peter12

Clearly, PepsiFree is on to something. To say that external factors - such as media - have NO effect is obviously wrong.

Online forums like Reddit have been used as platforms to influence hate-inspired killings, why not violent video games?

There's even a good case to say desensitization to violence has been deliberate, after WW2 it was discovered that fewer than 25% of US soldiers would shoot to kill [https://www.ozy.com/acumen/why-shoot...-problem/71286 ] and there was a real effort made to normalize violence through media in order to produce better soldiers.

It's hard to say how much of it was deliberate and how much of it is that we just enjoy violence in movies, but damn has it been effective. When I watch John Wick, I laugh when someone gets a knife in the eye and wince when a dog gets hurt, but in real life I still understand a humans life is much more valuable than a dogs.

There's something to it, but I don't think there is any sense in pointing to entertainment as a tangible way of reducing the number of these events. Violent crime has consistently dropped as violent video game, movies, reddit, etc. have soared in popularity. I don't think there is any way to regulate entertainment to make the real world a safer place.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Matata

There's even a good case to say desensitization to violence has been deliberate, after WW2 it was discovered that fewer than 25% of US soldiers would shoot to kill [https://www.ozy.com/acumen/why-shoot...-problem/71286 ] and there was a real effort made to normalize violence through media in order to produce better soldiers.

It's hard to say how much of it was deliberate and how much of it is that we just enjoy violence in movies, but damn has it been effective. When I watch John Wick, I laugh when someone gets a knife in the eye and wince when a dog gets hurt, but in real life I still understand a humans life is much more valuable than a dogs.

There's something to it, but I don't think there is any sense in pointing to entertainment as a tangible way of reducing the number of these events. Violent crime has consistently dropped as violent video game, movies, reddit, etc. have soared in popularity. I don't think there is any way to regulate entertainment to make the real world a safer place.

Yeah, I thought that was debunked. https://www.newsweek.com/myth-military-history-94505

Not sure how good a source Newsweek is, but maybe no worse than Ozy.

[Matata]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Yeah, I thought that was debunked. https://www.newsweek.com/myth-military-history-94505

Not sure how good a source Newsweek is, but maybe no worse than Ozy.

Those do sound like valid criticisms, but in both cases the US military did seem to take the original report seriously and would have had the same affect.

[Rando]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

I think as far as 'influences' go, one of the articles briefly mentioned Bryer's father stating that he was always on 'Youtube'. This is probably your smoking gun, as it were.

That's it, no more Binging with Babish for my daughter!

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Yeah, I thought that was debunked. https://www.newsweek.com/myth-military-history-94505

Not sure how good a source Newsweek is, but maybe no worse than Ozy.

What did I do now?

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Rando

That's it, no more Binging with Babish for my daughter!

For real though, I think the YouTube logarithms targeting kids are the only thing more insidious than those targeting lonely frustrated teenage boys.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Matata

Those do sound like valid criticisms, but in both cases the US military did seem to take the original report seriously and would have had the same affect.

A Canadian historian took a good whack at this thesis using data taken from actual combat reports filled out by Canadian officers in the Second World War.

https://books.google.ca/books/about/...page&q&f=false

[Scorch]

One of the teen’s mom makes this plea

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...home-safe.html