Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Just seems like Treliving didn't play this very well.

Seems like a recurring theme in his work lately.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

The Gilmour/Leeman trade is so bad that even if you took Gilmour and Leeman out of the trade, it would still be one of the worst trades in Flames history.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I sure hope the scouts are working overtime this season as that 3rd round pick may be the lone chance of the Flames erasing egg on their face with this deal. They did it with the Baertschi trade so it can be done. Another thing that doesn't get discussed enough is the fact that the Flames are only getting a 3rd round pick for the scenario of Neal outscoring Lucic. IMO Treliving really should have pushed harder to get a 2nd round pick as it's not like Holland had other offers on the table for Lucic as I feel personally they were probably giddy that the trade was even being entertained by the Flames. A few weeks of sitting on their hands and I have a feeling the Oilers come back and take the deal. Just seems like Treliving didn't play this very well.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

[I_H8_Crawford]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

The Gilmour/Leeman trade is so bad that even if you took Gilmour and Leeman out of the trade, it would still be one of the worst trades in Flames history.

That and the Phaneuf trade will both be incredibly hard to top in terms of sheer idiocy on the Flames' part.

[activeStick]

The Gilmour trade is easily the worst ever. Who was it - Leeman, Petit, Godynuk? Anyone else? We gave them Gilmour and Macoun, maybe Walmsley too?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I guess that coach Gallant missed that memo.... he played him 4th most ice time of all his forwards over 20 games the like of which Gio (for example) has never experienced).

he had 6 goals in 20 games tied for 3rd on the team

I would take Coach Gallant's judgement over your puck possession analysis 10 time out of 10.


You wrote a intense article on how bad Neal was with the Flames compared to his last 3 years and how he might be close to getting back to meeting expectations

Both you and I loved it in the poll after the UFA signing. That was a big surprise for me as I am against big UFA signings most of the time

OK ...

These aren't not my possession stats. If they were you could question objectivity, but they're done by multiple sources and they do every team.

You called Neal spectacular, there are plenty of stats to suggest he was far less than spectacular in Vegas.

It's possible to be a goal scorer, but do so little else positive that you still end up dragging your team down when you're on the ice. That's been James Neal for a few years now.

James Neal was a 55-60% xGF player for all of his early years and into Nashville. His last in Nashville, his year in Vegas, year in Calgary have all cratered to 44-46%.

That's an issue.

And the Flames should have been leery.

And yeah my initial reaction was "free right winger that can score!". Dig deeper later when it's not working and it can be pretty obvious the team is in trouble.

[Matt Reeeeead]

He has 2 xG this year. Judge the process, not the result. Dude ain’t good anymore and got shot lucky for a few games. The analysis should be better than this.


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[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by I_H8_Crawford

That and the Phaneuf trade will both be incredibly hard to top in terms of sheer idiocy on the Flames' part.

Phaneuf never really amounted to much.

Player for player, the Brett Hull trade is far worse than the Phaneuf trade IMO (taking the cup out of the equation).

[I_H8_Crawford]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

Phaneuf never really amounted to much.

Player for player, the Brett Hull trade is far worse than the Phaneuf trade IMO (taking the cup out of the equation).

It doesn't matter what he amounted to, his value at the time was worth a lot more than Stajan, Hagman, and White.

It was an absolutely brutal trade made of desperation and it cost the flames for years.

Phaneuf was the only truly valuable trade asset they had without a NMC and they returned garbage for him

[dino7c]

Stajan scoring a series winning goal kinda redeems that

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I sure hope the scouts are working overtime this season as that 3rd round pick may be the lone chance of the Flames erasing egg on their face with this deal. They did it with the Baertschi trade so it can be done. Another thing that doesn't get discussed enough is the fact that the Flames are only getting a 3rd round pick for the scenario of Neal outscoring Lucic. IMO Treliving really should have pushed harder to get a 2nd round pick as it's not like Holland had other offers on the table for Lucic as I feel personally they were probably giddy that the trade was even being entertained by the Flames. A few weeks of sitting on their hands and I have a feeling the Oilers come back and take the deal. Just seems like Treliving didn't play this very well.

You forgot he big monetary saving he Flames got out his deal. That's what they really got out of this trade and it remains valid today. It was clear to everyone at the time of the trade that Neal had more value than Lucic, absent contract considerations.

And none of us have any idea what went down and other options for either team. I doubt there was any other deal on the table where Treliving could dump Neal and save millions of dollars.

[Samonadreau]

Worst one for one trade was the Marc Savard for Zanuillan. Imagine having Savard on the Prime Iginla teams.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

You forgot he big monetary saving he Flames got out his deal. That's what they really got out of this trade and it remains valid today. It was clear to everyone at the time of the trade that Neal had more value than Lucic, absent contract considerations.

And none of us have any idea what went down and other options for either team. I doubt there was any other deal on the table where Treliving could dump Neal and save millions of dollars.

LOL the fact that $750k saved per season is a big deal is more an indictment of the salary cap mess Treliving put the team in with bad signings and buyouts. Holland played him like a fiddle at there should have been a higher pick in return for a player that had a contract that was easier to buy out and higher upside.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

Worst one for one trade was the Marc Savard for Zanuillan. Imagine having Savard on the Prime Iginla teams.

It was however a similar situation in that a coach didn't like the player and put the GM in a bad situation. At least Zanuillian wasn't an albatross contract that can't be bought out or exposed in the expansion draft.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

LOL the fact that $750k saved per season is a big deal is more an indictment of the salary cap mess Treliving put the team in with bad signings and buyouts. Holland played him like a fiddle at there should have been a higher pick in return for a player that had a contract that was easier to buy out and higher upside.

$750K was needed to keep the team together in the end, so yeah it mattered.

I just don't see why you think Neal is a big gift to Edmonton. This is two seriously flawed players that are past their prime with big tickets and a high likelihood that things are going to get worse, not better.

But that's both of them.

Can we agree that all Neal can do is score? Because he won't for the rest of his contract and I think this season you will see his numbers normalize or potentially even fall off a cliff. He's slow, terrible defensively, and could be a problem in the dressing room.

Lucic is faster at top speed, slower off the blocks, better defensively, and at least higher in worth ethic and physical play. He's not someone you want on your roster, but if Neal isn't scoring in Edmonton, I think he's a better player on a team looking to do something.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

LOL the fact that $750k saved per season is a big deal is more an indictment of the salary cap mess Treliving put the team in with bad signings and buyouts. Holland played him like a fiddle at there should have been a higher pick in return for a player that had a contract that was easier to buy out and higher upside.

The actual cash savings was many millions of dollars due to the fact the Lucic's contract was front loaded with bonuses paid.

Money may not matter to the fans, but it is relevant to the owners.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It was however a similar situation in that a coach didn't like the player and put the GM in a bad situation. At least Zanuillian wasn't an albatross contract that can't be bought out or exposed in the expansion draft.

If you seriously think Milan Lucic is going to occupy a protected slot in the expansion draft, I don't know what to tell you.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by activeStick

The Gilmour trade is easily the worst ever. Who was it - Leeman, Petit, Godynuk? Anyone else? We gave them Gilmour and Macoun, maybe Walmsley too?

Gilmour trade is the worst. The Flames lost one of their best players for a player on the decline with a foot out the NHL door. Phaneuf trade second worst with Darryl trading an asset that should have fetched a top prospect or 1st round pick plus for bottom 6 depth. This Lucic for Neal trade is notable as one of the worst but not nearly in the league of those two trades.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

If you seriously think Milan Lucic is going to occupy a protected slot in the expansion draft, I don't know what to tell you.

Why are you so positive he will waive his NMC?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

$750K was needed to keep the team together in the end, so yeah it mattered.

I just don't see why you think Neal is a big gift to Edmonton. This is two seriously flawed players that are past their prime with big tickets and a high likelihood that things are going to get worse, not better.

But that's both of them.

Can we agree that all Neal can do is score? Because he won't for the rest of his contract and I think this season you will see his numbers normalize or potentially even fall off a cliff. He's slow, terrible defensively, and could be a problem in the dressing room.

Lucic is faster at top speed, slower off the blocks, better defensively, and at least higher in worth ethic and physical play. He's not someone you want on your roster, but if Neal isn't scoring in Edmonton, I think he's a better player on a team looking to do something.

I think Neal has done all he needs to fit in culture wise, once his play falls off that cliff

Oilers : “Remember our cups?”
Neal: “Remember the 7 goals I scored in the first 4 games”