Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Almost everyone does do it (if they are put on the PP with McDavid). Tell me Chiasson scores the same elsewhere.

Yeah, but Neal has done it everywhere he played except Calgary. Chiasson, not so much.

Neal will out produce Chiasson by quite a bit if he stays healthy.

[stang]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

So +/- isn't a useless stat...

Without context it is.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by stang

Such a useless stat without a bunch of context. He was on the ice for 3 goals against in 4 games. No idea if his play caused any of those goals. However he scored 7 goals. Because 5 were on the power play they dont count in the +/- However they count towards winning games.

I honestly think the better stat in the modern era is xGF%. It's plus minus by play not by results.

Neal is a -1 because of a shorthanded goal and is EVEN five on five to this point. So no problem.

But his xGF% is 37.9% which means he and his linemates are getting run over pretty regularly five on five to start the season.

He's ranked 13th best for skaters in Edmonton with bottom sixers and the Nurse/Larsson pairing below him.

And Lucic hasn't been much better at 42.6% as well.

[Magnum PEI]

That first goal he scored against the Isles was pretty nice. Forechecked, caused the turnover and lazered it 13" low blocker. Never saw anything like that in all his time here. Just muffins wide or to the centre of mass.

[dissentowner]

Can we let this thread die? James Neal makes my blood boil, my new all time most hated player! F that guy.

[pseudoreality]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

The trade made the Oilers a little better for as long as Neal can sustain his little run, although most of his output will just be replacing Chiasson's.

The trade also made the Flames better because Flames-Neal was a black hole of a roster spot and almost any NHLer is an improvement on that.

This thread is comedy gold. Neal's little run is 7 goals in 4 games. No one in their right mind is saying he'll sustain it, but to suggest that if he did it would only make the team a little better is hilarious. He won't, but if he did it would be 144 goals, which would obliterate Gretzky's record of 92. I'm pretty sure having a player score 144 goals would make a team more than a little better.

[direwolf]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Can we let this thread die?

I second this. It's time to move on already and just enjoy the season. What's done is done.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by stang

Such a useless stat without a bunch of context. He was on the ice for 3 goals against in 4 games. No idea if his play caused any of those goals. However he scored 7 goals. Because 5 were on the power play they dont count in the +/- However they count towards winning games.

It has to be at least a little concerning for Oilers fans that their third-best forward is getting buried in possession with a CF% of 43.3, and has so far 0 ES points through four games.

Sure, Neal helps the Oilers powerplay; but how much of a drain is he on one of their most important players? It seems likely to me that anything gained by Neal's resurgence will easily be lost in Nugent-Hopkins's inevitable decline from last year.

[DFO]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It has to be at least a little concerning for Oilers fans that their third-best forward is getting buried in possession with a CF% of 43.3, and has so far 0 ES points through four games.

Sure, Neal helps the Oilers powerplay; but how much of a drain is he on one of their most important players? It seems likely to me that anything gained by Neal's resurgence will easily be lost in Nugent-Hopkins's inevitable decline from last year.

Has Neal been more of a drain than Lucic would have been had he stayed? No

Has Lucic improved the fortunes of the Flames over Neal? Debatable

For the Oilers Neal has absolutely been a net positive over Lucic.

[Split98]

He's their Wideman

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Almost everyone does do it (if they are put on the PP with McDavid). Tell me Chiasson scores the same elsewhere.

And he did it for years and years without McDavid. The Chiasson argument is just a bad look, honestly.

His shooting percentage will obviously come down to earth. But honestly, people are just going to have to accept the fact that Neal is likely to do for Edmonton what we expected him to do here.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by DFO

Has Neal been more of a drain than Lucic would have been had he stayed? No

Has Lucic improved the fortunes of the Flames over Neal? Debatable

For the Oilers Neal has absolutely been a net positive over Lucic.

Would Lucic have been lining up on the second line with Nugget-Hopkins? No.

Will that “net positive” produced almost exclusively on the powerplay and on the strength of a wildly unsustainable shooting percentage carry forward into the grind of the season? Most definitely not.

I think you are either missing or intentionally obfuscating the point here: Lucic’s presence did not really have much effect on the Oilers #3 forward since he really did not play with him much. The Oilers #3 forward currently looks lost and invisible at ES through four games as he struggles mightily to keep his line out of the defensive zone. If he can’t be effective, the Oilers’s season is sunk. Neal’s presence on his wing will absolutely have a continued effect.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

And he did it for years and years without McDavid. The Chiasson argument is just a bad look, honestly.

His shooting percentage will obviously come down to earth. But honestly, people are just going to have to accept the fact that Neal is likely to do for Edmonton what we expected him to do here.

I will say it again. Neal is a detriment, mainly due to off ice issues from what I am pretty reliably told.

But you misunderstand the point about Chiasson. The Chiasson argument is not "Chiasson and Neal are equal players". The argument is "Chiasson scored a bunch of goals playing with McDavid etc. - how many more net goals will Neal add compared to Chiasson? If it's marginal, there's no real gain at all".

Has Neal improves their second line? Well, how many goals did that line score by this time last year and how many do they have now? Has he improved their power play? Same question. It may well be the numbers are up in such a short sample size.

[DFO]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Would Lucic have been lining up in the second line with Nugget-Hopkins? No.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He did at times. They had him all over the lineup through the 3 years there.

Some of you are just so fragile when it comes to this trade

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DFO

He did at times. They had him all over the lineup through the 3 years there.

I think we are talking about last year. And where he would line up this year.

[powderjunkie]

I think the thing that concerns me about this whole thing is the organization's inability or unwillingness to try to repair the relationship with the player.

Obviously, there were issues on and off the ice, and I'm willing to accept that Neal likely bears the lion's share. However, it also seems crazy that the relationship would implode so quickly from July 2, 2018.

We know that Neal's previous 3 teams were quality, successful organizations. It's fair to speculate whether Poile and GMGM were personally ready to drive him to the airport, but I think it's also fair to ask if there was something different about the Flames organization, or the core leadership group that contributed to this failure.

We know that Frolik had issues last year...a respected veteran with his name on the cup who spent three years in Chicago.

We suspect that Hamilton wasn't fully accepted for being a different kind of guy ...

Troy Brouwer.


Underperforming UFAs is not a problem unique to Calgary, but I think it's fair to consider whether this team hasn't developed a sufficient culture for winning. You can say that they should suck it up and be professionals, but the other team has pro-hockey players too. It's a game of millimeters and milliseconds - positive headspace/confidence and implicit trust in your teammates can be a big part of winning those micro-battles. This team simply hasn't figured out how to do that [in the playoffs], nor have they been able to integrate newcomers with experience on teams that had 'winning cultures'.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I think the thing that concerns me about this whole thing is the organization's inability or unwillingness to try to repair the relationship with the player.

Obviously, there were issues on and off the ice, and I'm willing to accept that Neal likely bears the lion's share. However, it also seems crazy that the relationship would implode so quickly from July 2, 2018.

We know that Neal's previous 3 teams were quality, successful organizations. It's fair to speculate whether Poile and GMGM were personally ready to drive him to the airport, but I think it's also fair to ask if there was something different about the Flames organization, or the core leadership group that contributed to this failure.

We know that Frolik had issues last year...a respected veteran with his name on the cup who spent three years in Chicago.

We suspect that Hamilton wasn't fully accepted for being a different kind of guy ...

Troy Brouwer.


Underperforming UFAs is not a problem unique to Calgary, but I think it's fair to consider whether this team hasn't developed a sufficient culture for winning. You can say that they should suck it up and be professionals, but the other team has pro-hockey players too. It's a game of millimeters and milliseconds - positive headspace/confidence and implicit trust in your teammates can be a big part of winning those micro-battles. This team simply hasn't figured out how to do that [in the playoffs], nor have they been able to integrate newcomers with experience on teams that had 'winning cultures'.

From what I understand the Flames tried pretty hard last year with Neal. And Neal's issues were quite different than Frolik (assignment unhappiness), Hamilton (fit in the room) or Brouwer (plain old production and the downhill curve).

[chedder]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

From what I understand the Flames tried pretty hard last year with Neal. And Neal's issues were quite different than Frolik (assignment unhappiness), Hamilton (fit in the room) or Brouwer (plain old production and the downhill curve).

Wasn't Neal's on ice issue exactly that of Frolik's assignment unhappiness? As far as off ice, I have no clue but would love to hear the whispers.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by chedder

Wasn't Neal's on ice issue exactly that of Frolik's assignment unhappiness? As far as off ice, I have no clue but would love to hear the whispers.

On ice, he was certainly unhappy with slotting. But he was also lazy and un productive, unlike Frolik, who responded to demotions.

Off ice, you'd have to PM me.

[icecube]

We want the dirt on Neal's issues and we want them now. I'm sick of reading a dozen posts of "whispers" of this or that and then never mentioning what this or that is. Spill the beans or shut up about it. Makes me wonder if posters are b.s. ing just to look like some sort of insider or if there really is something deeper than just being a lazy whiner complaining about not being gifted 1st line ice time. Give us the details now, dammit!!!Pm me, I don't care. I need the dirt immediately, it's eating me up inside.