Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It's not unreasonable at all.



And I'm guessing Treliving tried to extract more as well. Are you of the opinion that he could have done better but chose not to? That would be odd wouldn't it?



Your next issue. Do you think they didn't ponder which contract was worse? Didn't ponder the NMC? Didn't ponder if they could move Lucic if they needed to?



If true, they should be fired.



I'll assume though that they think there are cap floor takers down the road that they can move him too, and the ownership is happier with the actual savings on the books, not to mention a lower cap hit for a player that they see fitting better.

I’m of the opinion that he could’ve done better but panicked and caved because he was desperate to get rid of a problem he was told he couldn’t buy out.

I’m pissed about the trade but it’s hard for me to lay it all at Treliving’s feet. He doesn’t seem thrilled about it himself. I’m more upset that once again it seems like the team is being hamstrung because of interference from the likes of King and Edwards.

I don’t think the issue of cap floor takers is relevant at all. Nobody is taking on Lucic, especially if he continues to decline into being a borderline player. He is our problem for the next 4 years no matter what, in my opinion. Oilers fans knew this too, which is why they were so happy to see him out the door.

[CaptainCrunch]

To me, its not a good trade, its not a bad trade, its a trade, and maybe its a trade that needed to happen.


On the one side, the Flames got some savings on the cap, and a potential draft pick.


On the other side, they bought in a guy on a horrendous contract, that's struggled over the last two years on a horrific hockey team.


On yet another side, they got rid of a guy that looked lazy, tired, unengaged whatever and when we needed him in the playoffs, he basically did what he'd been doing all year, putting in no effort.


At least with Lucic, there's the possibly of adding something that the Flames don't have right now except for a couple of players, and that's a bit of bite, and someone that can maybe make the Gaudreau's and Monahan play with a bit less fear.


At the same time, it feels like Neal just wasn't a fit and he certainly wasn't a effort guy this year, and this team has plenty of scoring power, so Neal's loss isn't a loss, its probably a positive that he's out of the dressing room.


But I can't judge this trade until the teams step on the ice, and we see if Lucic was committed to this off season.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Once again I think we can assume the Flames were equally as interested in getting rid of Neal and knew this was the only deal they would get.

Treliving isn't a "rush" guy.

He has to make a call about the market. Is it going your way? Against you? Is this the only option? Is Holland likely to soften or harden with time? Once a GM asks himself these questions he acts accordingly.

I think it silly to assume he didn't ponder any of that and just acted because ... why not.

He obviously made the deal he thought was best...I just think he was wrong on this one...Tre has had some high highs and some low lows.

It might work out for the Flames...no matter what it will work out for the Oilers though. They would have bought out Lucic for 1.9M in a heartbeat, there is no question. Worst case for the Oilers is something they would take any day.

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Because its a bad deal lol...Oilers were in the desperate situation

Like I said the Oilers would have bought out Lucic for 1.9M in a heartbeat...thanks to the Flames they can give Neal a shot and if it doesn't work out they are still in a spot they would take today.

Why the #### did we help them out?

Except it's not 1.9M. They have already "bought out" Lucic to the tune of 750K for the next four seasons. So if they do eventually buyout Neal, its actually now 2.65Mil because of the salary retention.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by theslymonkey

Ex except it's not 1.9M. They have already "bought out" Lucic to the tune of $750K for the next four seasons. So if they do eventually buyout Neal, its actually now 2.65Mil because of the salary retention.

Which is still far better in the end than $5-6 million on a player who does nothing to help you.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Irrelevant

Buying Neal out costs less cap space than keeping him...if he is useless they will buy him out


And if Vancouver traded for Lucic we would have a long thread making fun of them...don't kid yourself. Anyway I will be cheering for Lucic, just seems like one of those deals we will look back on and think WTF was Brad doing.

Maybe if you were playing single season in NHL19. You have to consider buyout in the condition your team is in.

After this season, including Neal they have 6 forwards signed (RNH will also be in the final season). Buying out Neal so early is a waste, if it means additional 2M cap hit for the duration of McDavid's contract.

Chances are with all that cap space they will have to to be big players in the UFA market to appease McDavid (plus they don't have enough NHL talent to fill those spots from the farm). That means over-payment in term and dollars (can you say Lucic, Pouliot, Sekera). The status quo picking up cast offs on 1M contracts because they are in cap jail can't be the play going forward. Every bit of cap space matters if they want to compete and not crush McDavid's will to play hockey. Imagine if JP turned out to be a decent player that commanded a 7M cap hit, what position they would be in.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Flames could luck out and this breaks their way...I doubt it though

Both guys continue to suck (most likely)=Oilers win

[QUOTE=dino7c;7170735]


If both guys continue to suck and the Oilers buy out Neal, they will be paying more in penalties than the Flames will with Lucic on the roster.

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Which is still far better in the end than $5-6 million on a player who does nothing to help you.

See, but that's the problem. He does have positive value, just not in the place that you're looking for. Hits, fights, possession, leadership all have value, just not at 6mil. But if they need to waste 2.65 to remove him and then add back the same qualities that Lucic brings, it would be approximately the same cap hit in the end.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

I’m of the opinion that he could’ve done better but panicked and caved because he was desperate to get rid of a problem he was told he couldn’t buy out.

I’m pissed about the trade but it’s hard for me to lay it all at Treliving’s feet. He doesn’t seem thrilled about it himself. I’m more upset that once again it seems like the team is being hamstrung because of interference from the likes of King and Edwards.

I don’t think the issue of cap floor takers is relevant at all. Nobody is taking on Lucic, especially if he continues to decline into being a borderline player. He is our problem for the next 4 years no matter what, in my opinion. Oilers fans knew this too, which is why they were so happy to see him out the door.

But I think you're missing the point.

He should panic if this was the only deal available to get Neal out of town. And act accordingly. We've heard it was with him for up to ten days and finally he made the move after waiting Holland out a bit.

If that was it, it would be more objectionable to hem and haw and miss that opportunity altogether.

I agree that Treliving isn't thrilled, I think he's happier with lucic than Neal so it's a softer landing than keeping Neal.

But the Flames pay to the cap, talking down your nose at owners seems a little misplaced.

[SeanCharles]

Lucic is much more valuable than alot are giving him credit for..

We will no longer have Peluso dress for 3 mins or Prout dress and run 5 dmen late in a game.

We needed a tougher guy in our forward ranks.

I wish people would wait until we see him in a Flames uniform before annointing this trade as an Oilers win and an epic failure on the Flames part.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by dino7c

He obviously made the deal he thought was best...I just think he was wrong on this one...Tre has had some high highs and some low lows.

It might work out for the Flames...no matter what it will work out for the Oilers though. They would have bought out Lucic for 1.9M in a heartbeat, there is no question. Worst case for the Oilers is something they would take any day.

But the low low was a year and three weeks ago.

It wasn't last Friday.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Which is still far better in the end than $5-6 million on a player who does nothing to help you.

Nothing?

You don't see Lucic as providing the physical presence that Calgary has been hunting for for two years?

If he's done being a pain in the ass who likes to hit, you're right.

if not then he's overpaid by about 2.0 to 2.5M

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by theslymonkey

See, but that's the problem. He does have positive value, just not in the place that you're looking for. Hits, fights, possession, leadership all have value, just not at 6mil. But if they need to waste 2.65 to remove him and then add back the same qualities that Lucic brings, it would be approximately the same cap hit in the end.

I think some people are really going to be shocked at how bad Lucic actually is. It’s all well and good to say those attributes have value, but they only have value on players who can play. Tkachuk and Kane are examples of those kinds of guys. When hits and toughness come with a guy who can’t skate or make even the simple plays, and who really only engages with other teams’ knuckle chuckers it means nothing. What we have is a $6 million player who I think struggles to even make the lineup. A $6 million Peluso.

[shogged]

I’m indifferent to the players, but I dislike the trade because of the favour we did for their expansion draft list

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

I think some people are really going to be shocked at how bad Lucic actually is. It’s all well and good to say those attributes have value, but they only have value on players who can play. Tkachuk and Kane are examples of those kinds of guys. When hits and toughness come with a guy who can’t skate or make even the simple plays, and who really only engages with other teams’ knuckle chuckers it means nothing. What we have is a $6 million player who I think struggles to even make the lineup. A $6 million Peluso.

And yet he did a pretty good job at engaging with our core players and pissed them all off.

(Credit N-E-B for the picture)

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

I think some people are really going to be shocked at how bad Lucic actually is. It’s all well and good to say those attributes have value, but they only have value on players who can play. Tkachuk and Kane are examples of those kinds of guys. When hits and toughness come with a guy who can’t skate or make even the simple plays, and who really only engages with other teams’ knuckle chuckers it means nothing. What we have is a $6 million player who I think struggles to even make the lineup. A $6 million Peluso.

5M, but I do get what you are saying. I don't think anything that will be said in the off season is going to change anyone's mind. It won't be until we start playing game that this will be sorted. Is he a 6M Peluso or 2017 Lucic. Time will tell, but the answer will probably be in the middle somewhere. What gives me pause for optimism are his hit totals and advanced stats. He knows his role and will not be as big as a liability as Neal.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

I think some people are really going to be shocked at how bad Lucic actually is. It’s all well and good to say those attributes have value, but they only have value on players who can play. Tkachuk and Kane are examples of those kinds of guys. When hits and toughness come with a guy who can’t skate or make even the simple plays, and who really only engages with other teams’ knuckle chuckers it means nothing. What we have is a $6 million player who I think struggles to even make the lineup. A $6 million Peluso.

But the guy that's leaving can't play a bottom six role because he isn't a defensive player and lacks the foot speed. He won't get to play with top six players in Calgary so he won't score.

Lucic has a better chance of adapting to a permanent bottom six role and is still a spooky guy to deal with.

If there wasn't a toxic asset going the other way I'd hate this. But the differential seems to be getting ignored here.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

I think some people are really going to be shocked at how bad Lucic actually is. It’s all well and good to say those attributes have value, but they only have value on players who can play. Tkachuk and Kane are examples of those kinds of guys. When hits and toughness come with a guy who can’t skate or make even the simple plays, and who really only engages with other teams’ knuckle chuckers it means nothing. What we have is a $6 million player who I think struggles to even make the lineup. A $6 million Peluso.

That's all well and good but the key aspect you keep forgetting is Neal was on the books for 4 more years for a higher cap hit than Lucic.

To add to that I get the impression management had no interest of buying him out so we were stuck with him or had to take a chance on another bad contract.

Sure if we brought Lucic in without the caveat of Neal exiting this would be disastrous but the fact of the matter is Neal had to go.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

That's all well and good but the key aspect you keep forgetting is Neal was on the books for 4 more years for a higher cap hit than Lucic.

To add to that I get the impression management had no interest of buying him out so we were stuck with him or had to take a chance on another bad contract.

Sure if we brought Lucic in without the caveat of Neal exiting this would be disastrous but the fact of the matter is Neal had to go.

Our assumption train is very similar.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

I’m of the opinion that he could’ve done better but panicked and caved because he was desperate to get rid of a problem he was told he couldn’t buy out.

I’m pissed about the trade but it’s hard for me to lay it all at Treliving’s feet. He doesn’t seem thrilled about it himself. I’m more upset that once again it seems like the team is being hamstrung because of interference from the likes of King and Edwards.

I don’t think the issue of cap floor takers is relevant at all. Nobody is taking on Lucic, especially if he continues to decline into being a borderline player. He is our problem for the next 4 years no matter what, in my opinion. Oilers fans knew this too, which is why they were so happy to see him out the door.

This is not an example of the team being 'Hamstrung' by ownership. It is very normal for owners to have limits on how much money they'll spend on buyouts. Swapping Neal for Lucic does not hinder the team in the least, it's a wash at worst. If ownership would have allowed Tre to buyout Neal, I'm sure he would have... but then again, how much dead cap do you want?

This trade gives us more cap space, that is really the net from this trade. Stop thinking about a buyout, it wasn't going to happen. It was Neal for 4 more years at 5.75m per or Lucic for 4 more years at 5.25 per. And after the season Neal had and the healthy scratch in the playoffs, my guess is Neal asked to be moved. So if you're the GM you have a player who grossly underperformed, and likely wants a change of scenery. You know you have to move the asset and you know his contract is near unmovable. So yeah, it makes a lot of sense to make a deal like this.

Had he not made this deal we'd be going into the season with a useless fwd who can only play top 6 minutes to be effective, and doesn't want to be here. He'd be taking a spot from our younger guys, preventing their development. Or the coach could sit him, play a rookie instead - now it's costing us around 6.65m to have Neal on the roster.

I understand not liking this trade but what was Tre really supposed to do? Hope for a rebound season? We saw Neal play last year... I kept believing he would turn it around, but there was never a sign that that would happen. I'm sure management saw that too, and didn't want to risk having Neal drag the team down, again. Then you have a much worse situation, Neal would literally be unmovable at that point - if he isn't scoring he is not an NHL player. Lucic still is.