Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by kukkudo

Come on Dino a second overall finish that led to nothing. That's the part most fans are frustrated with.

They lost 2 games in OT, one due to Neal.

No longer a problem!

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

This. Not to mention, other teams are strengthening.

So far this off season, the flames have added Talbot (who we all laughed at last year) Lucic (who we all laughed at last year) and a bunch of AHLers

...while losing Hathaway and likely one of Frolik/Brodie just to keep our RFA’s.

There’s still time, but the best opportunities to strengthen have likely passed. While I don’t think anyone’s standing on centre street bridge ready to jump off, it’s reasonable (IMHO) to be concerned.

Fingers crossed for some salary cap relief at Arbitration and Chucky negotiations. Getting good contracts with these players is critical to flames success in 19/20

For real success you build from within though. You develop room for Dube and Czarnik

[Karl]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

For real success you build from within though. You develop room for Dube and Czarnik

Dube sure. Czarnik...I don't know. I kinda think Czarnik has maxed out and is what he is right now.

[CanadaMatt]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

For real success you build from within though. You develop room for Dube and Czarnik

I don’t disagree with this to be honest, but I’d be more confortable with a bit of column A (adding) and column B (developing)

Good point though

[Poe969]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

The Flames traded a huge haul of picks for a guy that was supposed to help them win the big games. So now the Flames have won 1 playoff game with him on the team and the player taken with the pick they traded for him will 100% be a more effective player than him by the time the next playoffs come around.

It was an ok move at the time but has turned out completely awful for the Flames.

I get what you're saying, I don't agree but i get it. I'm saying that signing brouwer was a bigger mistake. Hamonic helped this team become a second overall team this past year while brouwer....well he just ducked and is still costing the team.

[Poe969]

Czarnik was signed as a ufa, he wasn't developed by the team.

[Yobbo]

The big mistake started with the signing of Neal. He didn't fit in since day one unfortunately, and after seeing how the Flames were pushed around over the season and playoffs, Tre found a suitor to take his mistake for Edmonton's mistake. Fortunately Lucic does bring a ton of toughness, hits, fights, and will protect his teammates. It's not an ideal situation but maybe Lucic fits in well here on the 3rd or 4th line, and I could see him becoming a bit of a fan favourite. We'll see what happens I guess, and I hope for the best.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Bourque's Twin

What if the Flames signed Ferland and bought out Neal?

Total cost would’ve been $3.5 + $1.916 = $5.416

Lucic is $5.25



For an extra 200K and the burden of $1.916 on the books years 5-8, the Flames could’ve had Ferland instead of Lucic.

You are talking about cap hit, not actual cash.

Plus the continuing cap hit.

Plus who knows if Ferland had any interest in coming back.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Exactly, a team like the Flames should not be trading picks unless they truly believe they are knocking on the door. They traded a first, three seconds and two thirds (and a few other assets) for Hamonic, Stone, Smith and Lazar. Hamonic is the only one who has made a major contribution to the team. I hope they are developing more confidence in their amateur drafting, no need to fill gaps with picks for the next couple years given the depth the team has.

The Flames will never be a destination for UFA’s either, easily in the bottom third of the league in terms of a destination for a valued ufa. Which leaves them scraping the bottom of the barrel most of the time on July 1st.

How does finishing 2nd overall not knocking on the door?

[Sainters7]

Visiting cousins in Kelowna, they all Oilers fans. Their eternal optimism about landing what they see as the pre Flames, prime version of Neal is really grinding my gears..I forget what Oiler fans are like every summer about their team's chances.

[Bingo]

Had a back and forth with Staples on Twitter today and have to admit he's been pretty level headed about the whole thing.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

You are talking about cap hit, not actual cash.

Yeah, Flames are paying Lucic 14M over his contract.

Buying out Neal and signing Ferland at 3.5M for 4 years, would cost 29M+. Over double in actual cash. No longer comparable situations.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

This. Not to mention, other teams are strengthening.

So far this off season, the flames have added Talbot (who we all laughed at last year) Lucic (who we all laughed at last year) and a bunch of AHLers

...while losing Hathaway and likely one of Frolik/Brodie just to keep our RFA’s.

There’s still time, but the best opportunities to strengthen have likely passed. While I don’t think anyone’s standing on centre street bridge ready to jump off, it’s reasonable (IMHO) to be concerned.

Fingers crossed for some salary cap relief at Arbitration and Chucky negotiations. Getting good contracts with these players is critical to flames success in 19/20

Second overall in the NHL. Usually teams that finish there dont need to make massive adds.

Teams are trying to keep up with us. We scored enough, had adequate tending but needed toughness. As much as Lucic isn't what he was, he is one of the handful of most intimidating players in the league. So we're addressing a need, whereas Neal didn't add anything really. Adding a bigger middle six winger at some point as well as the addition by subtraction of shipping out Neal could be the tinkering that a 2nd overall team that just played a bit too small needs to do.

More than any free agent they could throw a wad of cash at, what the flames could benefit most from is experience.

This desperation to do some radical face lift every off season is getting old. We're on the right path, as confirmed by the standings. The playoff success takes figuring out.

Every cup winning team in recent memory had to go through their trials with the same core over a period of time before figuring it out. I think this is one of those times where we have to exercise patience and not overreact to these deals. Teams that are poised to make noise don't usually have huge flashy offseasons. The flames are coming into that category and aside from nabbing one more top 6 forward somewhere, it's a case of tinkering going forward from here.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

How does finishing 2nd overall not knocking on the door?

Yes I would say if they are in the same place next year they are knocking on the door. I think when you go in you go all in and get real quality pieces for a run. Trading high picks for Elliott, Smith and Stone is not trading picks for high quality pieces. But I do think they have traded too many picks too early in their window. Now may be the time but that would mean close to half a decade without many picks in the first 3 rounds. That will undoubtedly catch up with the team in 3 or 4 years.

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by Sainters7

Visiting cousins in Kelowna, they all Oilers fans. Their eternal optimism about landing what they see as the pre Flames, prime version of Neal is really grinding my gears..I forget what Oiler fans are like every summer about their team's chances.

That's the funny part. In what world are the Oilers a 30+ year old Neal away from being a perennial playoff team??? That fanbase has an amazing ability to not show any humility every single summer...

The most likely outcome is that after a brief adrenaline bump...both players regress to what they have shown the last 82 games...anything above that for either team is gravey...

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The guy was acquired as a bottom six forward that is tough and intimidating. The fact that he has good underlying numbers is an intriguing bonus, and certainly not something to be ignored, as they are fact.

Do you want this transaction to fail?

Acquired as a bottom six forward that is tough and intimidating to play in a game that is progressively becoming more and more about speed, skill, vision, playmaking, strength and strategic defending.

It already has failed. We’re locked into 4 years of Lucic. There’s no escaping this deal if Lucic continues to slide to the point of being unplayable. Which is what we’ve been mocking the Oilers about for 3 years.

Now we’re paying a position locked bottom six 5.25 million.

At no point in time has anyone wanted Treliving to go out and give a bottom six player $5.25 x 4 so why go out and acquire one just because James Neal has put egg on your face.

[CanadaMatt]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

This desperation to do some radical face lift every off season is getting old.

I'm not sure where you got this from. I don't see anybody advocating a "radical face lift". My take from this forum is that concerned folks would have been happy with the addition of a reliable 2nd line RW, which appears to be one of the biggest holes in the team

Would you admit that immediately after Game 5 against Colorado, you would have raised your eyebrows if somebody said that at the end of July, the Flames would have added only Talbot and Lucic to this team and seen the back of Hathaway, who left for a fairly marginal contract?

People keep mentioning 2nd overall, but you'll note that betting markets have the Flames ~10th to win next season. I think that a fair placement of where the Flames will be next year (i.e 4th or 5th in the conference) after Vegas, St Loius, Colorado and then battling with Dallas, Nashville, San Jose. for home ice in round 1

For the record I am 55% sure that the Lucic for Neal deal was a win.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Acquired as a bottom six forward that is tough and intimidating to play in a game that is progressively becoming more and more about speed, skill, vision, playmaking, strength and strategic defending.

I agree with this but CGY has that in abundance. It helped them achieve 2nd overall and first in the West.

From what I've seen Treliving comment on about this deal he recognizes they have speed, skill, competitive players with playmaking, vision and strategic defending (he also continues to draft the above qualities) but what they lacked was brutishness, intimidation and a physical presence. He said that is still part of the game - Do you agree?

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

Unlikely? He already pretty much did that all of last season. His effort was absolutely pitiful. You still think you could acquire Milan Lucic without adding additional assets if Neal was playing bottom six minutes, no offensive output and sulking in the dressing room 1/4 the way into a season? I don’t.

All of a sudden Milan Lucic is some special asset that would be difficult to pry out of Edmonton 15 games into the season? They’ve been begging for someone to take him and talk for so long was they’d have to pay a 1st (like Toronto did to clear one year of Marleau) or Puljujarvi. They’d still be willing to take Neal for Lucic 1 for 1 15 games into the season if Neal looks like 2018-19 Neal.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

I agree with this but CGY has that in abundance. It helped them achieve 2nd overall and first in the West.

From what I've seen Treliving comment on about this deal he recognizes they have speed, skill, competitive players with playmaking, vision and strategic defending (he also continues to draft the above qualities) but what they lacked was brutishness, intimidation and a physical presence. He said that is still part of the game - Do you agree?

I do agree 100% it’s still part of the game and that’s why our team isn’t having playoff success. Our roster construction is too early for the game of the future.

Right now you still need your speed/skill players to have some size and strength as well as we saw was greatly exposed by Colorado. Sure the pure goon and 4th line mucker days are gone but adding a 3rd liner who adds toughness doesn’t make us materially any better. Lucic is not going to have any impact on our top line (right now Gaudreau - Monahan- Lindholm) being able to drive play in the playoffs and being strong enough to counteract teams with, fast heavy and skilled top lines.

Games aren’t won in scrums and by having an intimidating face on the bench.

Which is why Hathaway was so valuable. He added grit along with motor, penalty kill, and was able to produce a decent amount for the ice time, position and linemates he was given.