Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It is not that simple. Does CSEC benefit from the Stampede using the facility? There is a little more nuance to that point than your opinion would suggest.

There is also another fundamental issue at play here that doesn't get as much discussion as it warrants, IMO. And that is the location.

Arenas, in cities this size, are not good investments, which is why funding is such a major issue and source of contention. But an extension of that is that an arena does attract a large amount of development around it. CSEC (or the owners) wants to develop other projects around the arena, in order to leverage their investment.

The city wants the arena to be part of their development plan. They have their own plans for the area surrounding the Victoria Park location (thus the city also sees benefit in the project). And further to this, the Stampede Board wants that location, and wants to benefit from the arena as well.

There is no right or wrong here, simply two very different agendas. And IMO, this is the real source of the cavernous distance between the two sides.

The current arena is like a block away from where the new arena would go. There's basically no development around the Saddledome. Why is this new arena one block away going to be any different?

[PeteMoss]

Ken King is following orders. Do you really think he's out here giving press conferences and bringing in Bettman on his own?

I dont think he's great at his job, but he's just following orders in this case.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

The more I think about it the more I think Ken King may soon be done with the flames. This negotiation has been an absolute PR nightmare and although he has been following the flames’ mandate, he has been presenting it very poorly and standoffish in the media. They may not get rid of him before the deal gets done since doing so could put them in a weaker negotiation position, but someone will get the axe for blowing the election buying master plan.

Make Craig Conroy team president!

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Ken King is following orders. Do you really think he's out here giving press conferences and bringing in Bettman on his own?

I dont think he's great at his job, but he's just following orders in this case.

He should also be following a script then because he's awful at conveying the message.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

The current arena is like a block away from where the new arena would go. There's basically no development around the Saddledome. Why is this new arena one block away going to be any different?

Because the CMLC is currently working with the Stampede, Victoria Park residents assoc, CSEC, and the City to create a vision for the area and have already committed funds for infrastructure improvements to entice development now that the East Village is nearly complete.

The Stampede has been unable to attract a development partner or do it themselves.

[calumniate]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Ken King is following orders. Do you really think he's out here giving press conferences and bringing in Bettman on his own?

I dont think he's great at his job, but he's just following orders in this case.

I wish I could simply follow orders yet do a terrible job of it, and still be employed!

[shadowlord]

Originally Posted by calumniate

I wish I could simply follow orders yet do a terrible job of it, and still be employed!

I think Ken King's role is to take the rap for this (good or bad), and then be released from the job with a healthy severance once the arena plans are done.

The public may feel that he's doing a terrible job, but by attracting the bulk of the negative attention to him and not the CSEC organization nor the owners; he can be jettisoned. He's operating exactly as the owners want, otherwise they'd fire him if he wasn't.

[Eric Vail]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

The more I think about it the more I think Ken King may soon be done with the flames. This negotiation has been an absolute PR nightmare and although he has been following the flames’ mandate, he has been presenting it very poorly and standoffish in the media. They may not get rid of him before the deal gets done since doing so could put them in a weaker negotiation position, but someone will get the axe for blowing the election buying master plan.

I don't think there is any way to separate what King is doing from the Flames ownership. King is the voice of the owners. If you don't like what he is saying, blame the owners who control him.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by fotiou22

But geez, you have to wonder how he can look himself in the mirror after all this. Or even make eye contact with all of us in this city he's tried to screw over.

That would imply guilt, I'm not sure that someone who demanded that the city taxpayers... give him a $550,000,000.00 arena, adjacent practice rink, adjacent event space area, property tax exemptions on further adjacent development land, cuts of revenue from separate land use (Casino/Parking), assume their security costs, assume some of their customers transportation costs, and demand the demolition of a possible event space competitor in exchange for 18% of the construction cost of just the arena in upfront rent (and 32% in a surcharge (half of which they'd be otherwise obligated to additionally pay to their employees if it was paid as rent)... can feel much guilt. Probably rationalizes it as screwing the "government" as if the government weren't citizens. Or tells himself that the citizens are getting paid in "feelings" or some such nonsense.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

The current arena is like a block away from where the new arena would go. There's basically no development around the Saddledome. Why is this new arena one block away going to be any different?

That's the point.

The current arena is on the Stampede grounds, which eliminates the ability to develop around it.

Ans that's the problem with the proposed new location as well (not that it is Stampede grounds but that it is controlled by the city and they have their own plans for it).

My point is that CSEC wants a situation like Edmonton, Glendale and LA where they can develop projects around the arena.

With the city's site, that isn't really an option.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Parallex

That would imply guilt, I'm not sure that someone who demanded that the city taxpayers... give him a $550,000,000.00 arena, adjacent practice rink, adjacent event space area, property tax exemptions on further adjacent development land, cuts of revenue from separate land use (Casino/Parking), assume their security costs, assume some of their customers transportation costs, and demand the demolition of a possible event space competitor in exchange for 18% of the construction cost of just the arena in upfront rent (and 32% in a surcharge (half of which they'd be otherwise obligated to additionally pay to their employees if it was paid as rent)... can feel much guilt. Probably rationalizes it as screwing the "government" as if the government weren't citizens. Or tells himself that the citizens are getting paid in "feelings" or some such nonsense.

It's not about screwing anyone, it's that he thinks they deserve it. That's how out of touch they are.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by getbak

They get all revenue from the building, so yes.

Even during Stampede?

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

That's the point.

The current arena is on the Stampede grounds, which eliminates the ability to develop around it.

Ans that's the problem with the proposed new location as well (not that it is Stampede grounds but that it is controlled by the city and they have their own plans for it).

My point is that CSEC wants a situation like Edmonton, Glendale and LA where they can develop projects around the arena.

With the city's site, that isn't really an option.

The thing is though that the city (or better yet CMLC) has a pretty good track record of leading urban development. Everything they've touched over the last few years has resulted in a high-quality product. http://www.calgarymlc.ca/projects-la...projects-intro

I have much more faith in them developing a great arena district than either the Flames or the Stampede. It may not be optimal for the Flames revenue plans, but as citizens, we should want CMLC on this.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

The $185 million (what’s the exact number again) offered by the city to help CSEC to complete this project more than covers whatever offshoot benefits the city might receive from the project. Many studies have shown that amount to be insignificant. The primary beneficiary (primary is probably not strong enough a word here) is CSEC. It’s their building.

No one is stopping Flames owners from purchasing surrounding lands and developing there.

There is a reason the city wants it there. And that reason isn't so that CSEC can buy the surrounding lands and develop as they like.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Table 5

The thing is though that the city (or better yet CMLC) has a pretty good track record of leading urban development. Everything they've touched over the last few years has resulted in a high-quality product. http://www.calgarymlc.ca/projects-la...projects-intro

I have much more faith in them developing a great arena district than either the Flames or the Stampede. It may not be optimal for the Flames revenue plans, but as citizens, we should want CMLC on this.

That is a completely different conversation.

The point was that development around the arena matters a great deal. And the location being offered by the city essentially eliminates, or drastically reduces, the opportunity for further development for them.

Thus the contention.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Table 5

The thing is though that the city (or better yet CMLC) has a pretty good track record of leading urban development. Everything they've touched over the last few years has resulted in a high-quality product. http://www.calgarymlc.ca/projects-la...projects-intro

I have much more faith in them developing a great arena district than either the Flames or the Stampede. It may not be optimal for the Flames revenue plans, but as citizens, we should want CMLC on this.

So let's have that conversation...

Why? What have they done so far that demonstrates their superiority in this regard? What kind of development do we have with the current arena? What other areas in the city have been developed in a way that suggests they should be in charge of an arena district?

I don't see any pedestrian traffic in EV, for instance.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

That is a completely different conversation.

The point was that development around the arena matters a great deal. And the location being offered by the city essentially eliminates, or drastically reduces, the opportunity for further development for them.

Thus the contention.

And I get that. But when you're asking for hundreds of millions of dollars of public money, you're not going to get everything.

At the end of the day, the City's priority is helping out the Calgary Flames, not helping CSEC turn into the next Brookfield. If that's what they truly want to do, they'll need to go back to exploring funding this thing on their own.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

Make Craig Conroy team president!

No thanks. I don't want to have to dislike him.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Even during Stampede?

Yeah. They operate the building.

[djsFlames]

So does Ken King even do anything now that the arena is a dead issue to them? Or does he just walk around town and reiterate that the Flames are done and that basically encompasses his job now?

Honestly curious, because I feel like I'm just as qualified to do those things, and I'm looking for some extra hours each week. I'm also an introverted sometimes shy guy but I feel like I can charm people a fair bit better than Ken King. Just letting you know Flames, I'm available!