I have a fundy facebook friend who references this Ravi fellow, I shall have to try and decide whether to take a dump on his beliefs or not, it probably isnt worth the pain it causes him
Based on what I have read beyond this article it sounds like he had a reputation for propositioning and abusing massage therapists—many of whom were possibly illegal immigrants who succumbed for fear of deportation.
This has raised an important question for me about the role that the Bible plays in perpetuating this behaviour among Christian leaders. As I see more and more Christians on social media excuse these scumbags on the basis that they are only human, and that even the best of us are prone to such spectacular failings, the more I am convinced that the problem is less-so with human depravity, and more-so with stories from the Bible like those of King David's sin, recorded in 2 Sam 11–12.
For those of you unfamiliar with it, David was the most virtuous, popular and most successful king in the ancient history of Israel. According to the story he spotted a naked, beautiful Bathsheeba bathing on the roof-top of her dwelling, and sent to have her brought to his house where he had sex with her. She became pregnant, and the king panicked at the discovery that she was the wife of one of his high-ranking military officials named Uriah. To cover for his crime, David arranged for Uriah to be killed in battle, and then took Bathsheeba to be his wife. YHWH was angry with David. As punishment the son that Bathsheeba bore did not survive, but David lived long and died in peace and prosperity. The End.
(In a slightly altered version the punishment for David's crimes are suffered by the people of Israel, not the king himself.)
One will notice that the story itself is a story about men, written by men, for men. Bathsheeba is nothing more than an object to forward the narrative. She has no agency at all in the story, and her own feelings and her fate are entirely ignored. She has no power at all to resist the king, his advances, his sexual appetites, and ultimately his enforcement of marriage. In turn, the crime that David commits is not against her, but rather against her husband and his god. When Christians retell this story it is always as one of foreboding caution issued to Christian leaders, warning of the dangers of sexual misconduct to their own reputation and ministry. Again, the woman, her mistreatment, her feelings, and the consequences suffered by her are completely ignored. It is repulsive.
Is it any wonder that this is such a pervasive problem in the modern Church?
In all seriousness, pulling this from the sex abuse thread. I think it's completely unfair to blame the bible.
My sarcasm above, was meant to denote what I think the real problem is. The Christian mythos tells people that good people believe and bad people don't, so if you believe you are good and can dismiss any actions on the basis of being a good god fearing faithful man. I hear this from people all the time, "well they have good morals, they believe in god." Catholicism is even worse because they teach you that you can be forgiven for some pretty terrible as long as you truly believe, and ask nicely.
Predators are drawn to institutions where they access to the vulnerable. The Boy Scouts of America have gone bankrupt, unable to defend all the claims.
In all seriousness, pulling this from the sex abuse thread. I think it's completely unfair to blame the bible.
Not in the slightest. Where do you think the ideas espoused by Christians come from in the first place?
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My sarcasm above, was meant to denote what I think the real problem is. The Christian mythos tells people that good people believe and bad people don't, so if you believe you are good and can dismiss any actions on the basis of being a good god fearing faithful man.
I think you are totally wrong about this. Here is a sampling of Christian responses to the news about Ravi Zacharias:
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Originally Posted by Random Christian
I'm so glad I'm a Christian and not a Zacharian, because my hope and trust is in the Lord rather than in men, but there are still ramifications to fallen ministers, which is why the enemy targets them.
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Originally Posted by Random Christian
My faith is found in no one else than Jesus Christ! Praying for those directly affected by Ravi's sin.
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Originally Posted by Random Christian
This makes me sad as well. But reinforces the truth that we are all sinners in need of a Savior. I may be guilty of being one who thought he was super-human, super-Christian. But he was just a man.
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Originally Posted by Random Christian
The Lord really used Ravi Zacharias’s talks to move me closer to Him. The Lord used RZ to bring me closer to understanding God’s purpose for me. Key term is THE LORD. RZ was just the vessel— just a man. I pray that he repented and turned from this wickedness prior to his death.
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Originally Posted by Random Christian
This does not in any way discredits his MESSAGE!! We ALL FALL SHORT and there’s is no question that what he did behind closed doors was WRONG! But I put faith in NO MAN- It’s God’s WORD that’s the backbone.
I think it is easy for Christians to gloss over the failings of their leaders on the same premise that Christianity is founded upon: EVERYONE is a sinner; EVERY sin is equally deplorable and unacceptable. Quite to the contrary, it is fairly common for Christians to eat their own when they have fallen, and this is in large part due to the ideas expressed above: ministers and leaders are mere vessels for the message. Completely inconsequential, easily discarded and forgotten.
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Originally Posted by #-3
I hear this from people all the time, "well they have good morals, they believe in god." Catholicism is even worse because they teach you that you can be forgiven for some pretty terrible as long as you truly believe, and ask nicely.
Yeah, I see this as terribly dangerous theology, and in the case of fallen leaders like RZ it is this same type of thinking that normalizes all sorts of awful behaviour. Since every individual person in the human race is hopelessly depraved, then your thoughts and actions are no less wicked than those of child molestors, sociopaths and genocidal dictators. It is all "sin," after all.
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
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Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
This is the third in my rebuttal series to Christian apologist, Inspiring Philosophy, who has embarked on a feeble attempt to show the consistency and antiquity of the biblical book of Genesis.
This is also the first of probably three videos in which I will discuss in depth the evidence for the consensus theory of the formation of the Pentateuch from various earlier sources.
__________________
Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
I will be interviewing with the host on 10 May; I doubt that it will be a live discussion, but will certainly link to it once it is uploaded.
I might call on you for some answers today, am just getting into it with my fundy friends as to why they think Catholics arent Christian, which is ironic as they are utter biblical inerrants so you would think being founded by Peter or Mark would be pretty much a seal of approval
Probably the core disagreement your friends would have with Catholics is with salvation (or justification and sanctification I guess); God's removing of the condemnation and penalty of sin and making a person righteous and able to be with God through Christ's work.
They probably believe that people are saved by grace through faith. They also probably believe Catholics believe that salvation is by works (which would be an oversimplification, but works are part of the process for Catholics).
Synergysm vs monergism.
The sacraments are necessary to salvation for Catholics.
Or at least what I was both taught at Catholic school and later what my evangelical teachers told me what Catholics believe and why it's fundamentally different.
If the method of salvation is different then there isn't much common ground.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
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I might call on you for some answers today, am just getting into it with my fundy friends as to why they think Catholics arent Christian, which is ironic as they are utter biblical inerrants so you would think being founded by Peter or Mark would be pretty much a seal of approval
Sure thing. Although in my experience as a former anti-papist that for these people "The Word" supercedes all; especially Church traditions about sacraments and saints.
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
Probably the core disagreement your friends would have with Catholics is with salvation (or justification and sanctification I guess); God's removing of the condemnation and penalty of sin and making a person righteous and able to be with God through Christ's work.
They probably believe that people are saved by grace through faith. They also probably believe Catholics believe that salvation is by works (which would be an oversimplification, but works are part of the process for Catholics).
Synergysm vs monergism.
The sacraments are necessary to salvation for Catholics.
Or at least what I was both taught at Catholic school and later what my evangelical teachers told me what Catholics believe and why it's fundamentally different.
If the method of salvation is different then there isn't much common ground.
It's not just Catholics though, its Eastern and Coptic they look askance at, as well as JW's (I sympathise there) me I dont care either way but I dont get how anyone can view the bible as inerrant but at the same time discount all the bits about the early church
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Yeah, in pretty much every church I went to everyone else was led astray and didn't have true salvation.
But they really seemed to have a dislike for Catholics. And Mormons. I remember a lot of youth group meetings watching warning videos about Catholics and Mormons.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
It's not just Catholics though, its Eastern and Coptic they look askance at, as well as JW's (I sympathise there) me I dont care either way but I dont get how anyone can view the bible as inerrant but at the same time discount all the bits about the early church
The blame for this lies squarely on the Protestant Reformation in Europe, and the Great Awakening in the US. There was so much entrenched bitterness built up by centuries of church excess, that in the 16th century the traditional churches were all recaste by the new Reformers as degenerate and corrupt. Luther's translation of the Greek New Testament into German, and Wycliffe's English translations also revealed the litany of problems with the Latin Vulgate, which was regarded by the Catholic Church as the only authorized text of Scripture. It became more palatable as a result to see the traditional churches as guilty of intentionally stifling and twisting the Word of God. From my own experience, we made it a point of celebrating the Reformers like Huss, Luther, Wycliffe, and Tyndall precisely for their courage in the face of Catholic suppression to translate God's Word into the vernacular.
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
I have uploaded a new video to my YouTube channel. This one lays out a tonne of the evidence for the Documentary Hypothesis—the reason it is so long is because there is just SO MUCH evidence.
This one was a hell of a lot of work, so I appreciate any views you can spare.
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
Hey Textcritic, do you have opinions on either of the Youtube channels Paulogia or Religion for Breakfast?
I've been watching a lot of them recently and have been thoroughly enjoying them. Paulogia in particular has some really good videos regarding various apologists.
Hey Textcritic, do you have opinions on either of the Youtube channels Paulogia or Religion for Breakfast?
I've been watching a lot of them recently and have been thoroughly enjoying them. Paulogia in particular has some really good videos regarding various apologists.
I don't know Religion for Breakfast, but Paulogia is one of my favourites, and he lives in Calgary (but he is also a dirty Oilers fan). I find him to be really fair in his reviews, his videos are entertaining and he also stays fairly well abreast of contemporary scholarship on the topics he covers.
You should read his blog-debate with Andrew Loke about the resurrection of Jesus. Loke's opening statement is barely comprehensible, but Paulogia's first offering is really good.