2020/2021 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[Enoch Root]

Of course the Flames want him to succeed. And of course they know how to develop players - they are an NHL franchise. But development is not one-size-fits-all, you can develop 9 guys well and still screw up the tenth because all players are different.

I am not saying that they screwed up with him. And I certainly wouldn't say he's a victim.

But I do think he's been given the short end of the stick for linemates, for the most part. Did he force the team's hand by being too awesome to keep down? No. But has he been lavished with great opportunities? Hardly.

I can see both sides of the argument for Bennett. But I think those that have written him off, the 'is what he is' crowd, have done so prematurely.

I think he is a late developer for whom it will all come together at some point. And at some point, he'll get the right opportunity. I have been concerned for a while now that the right opportunity will happen with another team though.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

These parts are brutal about it:



Because Bennett has most certainly been effective the only time he was given 2nd line minutes (2015-16).

Bennett has never so much as received an opportunity as a second line centre, so it's arguing a false premise. Of course he hasn't produced a ton centering guys like Brouwer, Chiasson, Bouma, and Lazar - but that's a role I'm not sure anyone would realistically be expected to produce a lot outside of hot streaks.



I mean, this is wrong.

If it weren't:

-Someone like Bob Hartley would not have compared him to Peter Forsberg following his D+1 year

-Someone like Bob Hartley would not have excitededly mentioned he was comfortable matching Bennett up to guys like Anze Kopitar down the middle following his D+2 year (just before we fired him)

-Someone like Brad Treliving would not have isolated his strong play down the middle following his D+3 year playoffs

-Someone like Glen Gulutzan would not have compared the player's ostensible development curve to Tyler Seguin following his D+3 year

-Someone like Geoff Ward would not have kept him steady at centre in the top 9 during his D+7 year playoffs, along with playing (and producing) on his #1PP unit in Matthew Tkachuk's absense, especially when he had a productive and healthy Derek Ryan available

-Someone like Craig Conroy would not insist that the player has always been viewed by the organization as a centre following his D+7 year.

- He would not be one of the better shot generators, chance generators, and shot assist generators on this roster

I mean, there's a lot of video evidence of Bennett showing strong IQ, once you look past the occasional failed toedrag (and he's far from the only player to botch toedrags)



This is simply an unsubstantiated claim. The player had his least effective year when played less, in fact in Transplant99's own words was outproduced by Zac Rinaldo when played less. He has his most effective year when played more.



This is false, considering he has been successfully used on the PK in the past.



And yet another poor take, considering he was literally, and productively playing top line PP in this year's playoffs after Tkachuk's injury. He can play top line PP. Perhaps the Flames don't have a niche for him on their PP, but that's probably because of the Flames' highly skilled, left-shot-heavy top six forward group.

If he can't play top line PP, why was he selected to play top line PP in the most important games of the year?

Reality must really suck for you guys that think hockey is played on a spread sheet.

5 full seasons....4 different coaches...multiple multiple line mates......its all their fault.


Just bizarre that a CAREER 28 point a season guy has entirely been misused and mishandled for 5 seasons now. That is literally an Oiler fan kind of suggestion......hmmm.

Maybe the Flames should bring Hartley back then?

I mean....that is a massive DERP!


Anyone that thinks Sam fracking Bennett has anything but average hockey IQ is lying to themselves or simply does not understand what that means...which would explain a lot.

I reallllllly want the guy to succeed...i am a fan of this team after all, but his "development" has not been limited by anyone except Sam Bennett and his choices while on the ice. Over and over and over again.

Then there is the "he will be better with better line mates" crap....well no #### sherlock....EVERY guy that has ever played in the NHL would be better with better line mates. Just the strangest and stupidest thing to defend him with.

The Flames have graduated player after player after player to the show the last 6 years...but somehow he isnt one of them because its the organizations fault. How does that make a lick of sense?

Anyhow...Sam Bennett ....#1 C...cannot be traded cause no way you will get back a better player....he is about to break out......he had a good 10 games after a 3 month break......yadda freaking yadda. My goodness .


As for the bolded....he was 11th on the club, 9th among F's for PP TOI per game on the playoffs...which is what I'm assuming what you mean? Though with you and whatever stats you feel like rolling out, I honestly have no idea.

LOL..........the legend of Bennett is alive and growing exponentially. Happens every single off season.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by TOfan

The question I have for Bennett supporters is how valid is the argument that Bennett’s lack of success is tied to his line mates or simply not being put in the position to succeed?

pretty valid. Quality of Teammate is the greatest driver for production in the NHL across the board.

Bennett entered the league in the same relative time as others who have developed under similar circumstances.

Not really, no.

Gaudreau

Gaudreau entered a team that was being pencilled in for the Connor McDavid sweepstakes. Contrast that with Sam Bennett, who entered a team that had previously made the playoffs, made a major offseason blockbuster addition to shore up its greatest weakness, and if not for league-worst goaltending, had expectations of making the playoffs and contend for a division title.

The one similarity here is that rookie Gaudreau was put on a terrible line with Joe Colborne and Paul Byron to start his career, and failed so spectacularily that he was made a healthy scratch five games in.

...Then he was played for the rest of his rookie season with Jiri Hudler, a 70 point forward who actually led this team in point, and if I'm not mistaken, led the NHL in even strength points, even if it was a fluke year, he had a midas touch that year. His rookie season was also his age 21 season after a three year college career.

And finally, Gaudreau is a natural left winger, so this isn't an apples-to-apples comparision with Bennett, who was drafted to be a centre - a far more challenging position. There are four wing positions in the top six, and only two centre positions in the top six. And not all natural centres are comfortable on the wing - case in point, Mikael Backlund walking into Geoff Ward's office last year to explicitly state that he did not feel effective on the wing.

Monahan

Monahan entered a team that was being pencilled in for the... Sam Bennett sweepstakes. He also had two full seasons in the NHL under his belt when Sam Bennett made his NHL debut.

Monahan was given far more responsibility as a rookie - and failed pretty immensely in doing so. But that's alright, because a team that expects to be bad, can afford to give players opportunity. That's why you see a guy like Thomas Chabot blowing up in Ottawa after they trade away Erik Karlsson.

There were two clear vacancies for top six center spots when Monahan the team, which he and Backlund both took hold of. These were not vacancies when Sam Bennett joined the team.



Those vacancies did not exist when Sam Bennett entered the team.

Tkachuk

A winger.

He entered a team that had two top six wingers (Johnny Gaudreau and Michael Frolik) and two top six centres (Mikael Backlund and Sean Monahan). It was obvious that there was a vacancy for his position as there are four top six winger positions. This was the same team that cycled the likes of Troy Brouwer and Alex Chiasson in its top six.

You have to realize though - that Sam Bennett is not a natural winger. The Flames drafted him to be a centre - and made a decision at that time to develop him as a centre.

And yes, he "passed" Sam Bennett in some key areas. That's not an indictment on Sam Bennett. This is an elite offensive talent here, arguably the best player on our team. The idea that they are supposed to be filling the same niche is inherently flawed. You don't go ask Jonathan Toews to fill Patrick Kane's niche. You don't go and ask Anthony Cirelli to fill Nikita Kucherov's niche. You don't go and ask William Karlsson to go fill Mark Stone's niche.

Mangiapane

Fun fact, Andrew Mangiapane is older than Sam Bennett.

And he's also, get this - a natural winger. You know who's not a natural winger? Sam Bennett. He's a centre. You know who else is not a natural winger? Mikael Backlund. He's a centre. These players' skillsets don't shine in the exact same facets as a goal scoring winger like Mangiapane.

And further to that, he's got an elite knack for goal-scoring that is complementary to his linemates.

And despite all that?

24 year old Andrew Mangiapane, playing almost all of his sophomore season with Matthew Tkachuk and one of Backlund and Lindholm down the middle, scored 17 goals and 15 assists in 68 games (38 point pace)

19 year old Sam Bennett, playing a portion of his rookie season with Backlund and Frolik, and a larger portion of his rookie season with guys like Marcus Granlund, Joe Colborne, and Lance Bouma, scored 18 goals and 18 assists in 77 games (38 point pace).

Yup.

Anderson

Um, what? Rasmus Andersson is a defenseman. Are you really comparing a defenseman to a forward? But sure, let's consider this:

Rasmus Andersson did not get a consistent opportunity in our top six last season, until after Travis Hamonic got injured.

Did Sean Monahan or Mikael Backlund get injured? I do not believe so. And I'd argue Sean Monahan and Mikael Backlund are profoundly better ice hockey talents than Travis Hamonic.

, and soon Dude & Valamaki I would wager.

Now you're supporting your already weak argument by making predictions? What?

So why has Sam had his head held below the water?

Because unlike Andrew Mangiapane, Matthew Tkachuk, Johnny Gaudreau, Sam is not a winger.

Because unlike Sean Monahan, Sam did not enter a team that expected to finish dead last and win the lottery.

Why is Sam the victim here?

Because his unique circumstance made him one.

Or is it that he hasn’t grasped the role or what it is the organization has told him he needs to do to be successful?

Conroy, a member of this organization, had an interview earlier this offseason lamenting the organization's inability to find a role for the player. What role is he supposed to grasp, when the organization can't figure out what role they want him to grasp?

Yeah, he hasn't been a great 4th line left winger.

Maybe because he's not a winger, and because playing with 4th liners does not do anyone any favours, unless that's their ceiling, which we've clearly seen is not Sam Bennett's ceiling.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Reality must really suck for you guys that think hockey is played on a spread sheet.

Um what? What spreadsheet are you talking about? There are so many logical fallacies in this sentence that the rest of your post isn't even worth reading. Par for the course for you.

[Love]

TOfan found on the side of the road buried in a ditch...

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

pretty valid. Quality of Teammate is the greatest driver for production in the NHL across the board.



Not really, no.



Gaudreau entered a team that was being pencilled in for the Connor McDavid sweepstakes. Contrast that with Sam Bennett, who entered a team that had previously made the playoffs, made a major offseason blockbuster addition to shore up its greatest weakness, and if not for league-worst goaltending, had expectations of making the playoffs and contend for a division title.

The one similarity here is that rookie Gaudreau was put on a terrible line with Joe Colborne and Paul Byron to start his career, and failed so spectacularily that he was made a healthy scratch five games in.

...Then he was played for the rest of his rookie season with Jiri Hudler, a 70 point forward who actually led this team in point, and if I'm not mistaken, led the NHL in even strength points, even if it was a fluke year, he had a midas touch that year. His rookie season was also his age 21 season after a three year college career.

And finally, Gaudreau is a natural left winger, so this isn't an apples-to-apples comparision with Bennett, who was drafted to be a centre - a far more challenging position. There are four wing positions in the top six, and only two centre positions in the top six. And not all natural centres are comfortable on the wing - case in point, Mikael Backlund walking into Geoff Ward's office last year to explicitly state that he did not feel effective on the wing.



Monahan entered a team that was being pencilled in for the... Sam Bennett sweepstakes. He also had two full seasons in the NHL under his belt when Sam Bennett made his NHL debut.

Monahan was given far more responsibility as a rookie - and failed pretty immensely in doing so. But that's alright, because a team that expects to be bad, can afford to give players opportunity. That's why you see a guy like Thomas Chabot blowing up in Ottawa after they trade away Erik Karlsson.

There were two clear vacancies for top six center spots when Monahan the team, which he and Backlund both took hold of. These were not vacancies when Sam Bennett joined the team.



Those vacancies did not exist when Sam Bennett entered the team.



A winger.

He entered a team that had two top six wingers (Johnny Gaudreau and Michael Frolik) and two top six centres (Mikael Backlund and Sean Monahan). It was obvious that there was a vacancy for his position as there are four top six winger positions. This was the same team that cycled the likes of Troy Brouwer and Alex Chiasson in its top six.

You have to realize though - that Sam Bennett is not a natural winger. The Flames drafted him to be a centre - and made a decision at that time to develop him as a centre.

And yes, he "passed" Sam Bennett in some key areas. That's not an indictment on Sam Bennett. This is an elite offensive talent here, arguably the best player on our team. The idea that they are supposed to be filling the same niche is inherently flawed. You don't go ask Jonathan Toews to fill Patrick Kane's niche. You don't go and ask Anthony Cirelli to fill Nikita Kucherov's niche. You don't go and ask William Karlsson to go fill Mark Stone's niche.



Fun fact, Andrew Mangiapane is older than Sam Bennett.

And he's also, get this - a natural winger. You know who's not a natural winger? Sam Bennett. He's a centre. You know who else is not a natural winger? Mikael Backlund. He's a centre. These players' skillsets don't shine in the exact same facets as a goal scoring winger like Mangiapane.

And further to that, he's got an elite knack for goal-scoring that is complementary to his linemates.

And despite all that?

24 year old Andrew Mangiapane, playing almost all of his sophomore season with Matthew Tkachuk and one of Backlund and Lindholm down the middle, scored 17 goals and 15 assists in 68 games (38 point pace)

19 year old Sam Bennett, playing a portion of his rookie season with Backlund and Frolik, and a larger portion of his rookie season with guys like Marcus Granlund, Joe Colborne, and Lance Bouma, scored 18 goals and 18 assists in 77 games (38 point pace).

Yup.



Um, what? Rasmus Andersson is a defenseman. Are you really comparing a defenseman to a forward? But sure, let's consider this:

Rasmus Andersson did not get a consistent opportunity in our top six last season, until after Travis Hamonic got injured.

Did Sean Monahan or Mikael Backlund get injured? I do not believe so. And I'd argue Sean Monahan and Mikael Backlund are profoundly better ice hockey talents than Travis Hamonic.



Now you're supporting your already weak argument by making predictions? What?



Because unlike Andrew Mangiapane, Matthew Tkachuk, Johnny Gaudreau, Sam is not a winger.

Because unlike Sean Monahan, Sam did not enter a team that expected to finish dead last and win the lottery.



Because his unique circumstance made him one.



Conroy, a member of this organization, had an interview earlier this offseason lamenting the organization's inability to find a role for the player. What role is he supposed to grasp, when the organization can't figure out what role they want him to grasp?

Yeah, he hasn't been a great 4th line left winger.

Maybe because he's not a winger, and because playing with 4th liners does not do anyone any favours, unless that's their ceiling, which we've clearly seen is not Sam Bennett's ceiling.

Good post.

I’ll keep it short; If Sam Bennett truly is this mishandled diamond in the rough, why hasn’t any other GM over the course of 3,4,5 years traded for him? why isn’t Steve Yzerman, for example, offering up a compelling enough package to land a natural 24 year old first or second line center? Or any other team for that matter? Don’t think any other team could have used him? Baffling, isn’t it?

Maybe NHL executives, across the board, don’t see him as a center? Or at least, much more than a 3C, at best?

[djsFlames]

Come on folks, enough.

Bennett has been played up with Gaudreau before, let's not pretend they haven't tried it. It was always short lived, not because they cut off his opportunities intentionally, but because he couldn't run with it and make a case for himself to stay there.

Put it to bed until he shows otherwise.

[Harry Lime]

I'm pretty sure the phone has rung for Sam Bennett, but this management team is not willing to sell that low. Every fan base for every other team has thrown out a Bennett proposal. It's well known that he has been ill used by Calgary coaches, and there is more there than meets the eye.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Come on folks, enough.

Bennett has been played up with Gaudreau before, let's not pretend they haven't tried it. It was always short lived, not because they cut off his opportunities intentionally, but because he couldn't run with it and make a case for himself to stay there.

Put it to bed until he shows otherwise.

I don't think that Bennett has ever centred Gaudreau. He played the opposite wing, though. So did Backlund, and that was a failure because Backlund does not play wing well. Backlund is an excellent player at center.

What fans feel when they talk about Bennett is frustration. It's just an argument about the cause of that frustration. The only people that I ever really disagree with are those that feel that Bennett has reached his ceiling. Luckily those posters are few and far between.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Come on folks, enough.

Bennett has been played up with Gaudreau before, let's not pretend they haven't tried it. It was always short lived, not because they cut off his opportunities intentionally, but because he couldn't run with it and make a case for himself to stay there. .

the right wingers in Bennett's three stints centering Gaudreau have been:

2015-16 - Michael Frolik/Josh Jooris
2016-17 - Alex Chiasson
2017-18 - Curtis Lazar

I would not call any of these situations "playing up with Gaudreau".

The one exception is the ever-brief period with Frolik. You may however note that Bennett had 5 pts in those 4 games and strong underlying numbers. To say he couldn't run with it would be a bold lie. Hartley chose to reconstruct the Gaudreau - Monahan - Hudler line, but perhaps that had more to do with the struggles of those other two during that stretch away from Gaudreau.

Originally Posted by TOfan

Good post.

I’ll keep it short; If Sam Bennett truly is this mishandled diamond in the rough, why hasn’t any other GM over the course of 3,4,5 years traded for him? why isn’t Steve Yzerman, for example, offering up a compelling enough package to land a natural 24 year old first or second line center?

Because it takes two sides to make a trade.

And one of those sides, is a general manager who has not traded the player away. Why has Brad Treliving not traded this player away?

Have you considered that there are very few packages more compelling than Sam Bennett's own upside? The upside he shows time after time when the playoffs roll around, despite limited minutes and roles and utilization?

Sean Monahan isn't Anze Kopitar. Mikael Backlund isn't Patrice Bergeron. Those are not the hills any GM wants to die on. That's why we continue to acquire centres (Elias Lindholm), draft centres (Dillon Dube, Connor Zary), and most likely why we continue to hang on to Sam Bennett.

Or any other team for that matter? Don’t think any other team could have used him? Baffling, isn’t it?

You're operating on this assumption that no one is interested in him. This is a league where a general manager traded a first round pick (Matthew Barzal) for Griffin Reinhart. Where a general manager traded a second round pick (Alex Formenton) for Curtis Lazar. Where a general manager traded a second round pick (Rasmus Andersson) for Sven Baertschi. You sincerely think no general managers have ever made an offer for Sam Bennett?

Maybe NHL executives, across the board, don’t see him as a center?

The only executives who've ever commented on Sam Bennett to my knowledge are Brad Treliving and Craig Conroy. Both of them have explicitly stated that they see him as a centre.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

the right wingers in Bennett's three stints centering Gaudreau have been:

2015-16 - Michael Frolik/Josh Jooris
2016-17 - Alex Chiasson
2017-18 - Curtis Lazar

I would not call any of these situations "playing up with Gaudreau".

The one exception is the ever-brief period with Frolik. You may however note that Bennett had 5 pts in those 4 games and strong underlying numbers. To say he couldn't run with it would be a bold lie. Hartley chose to reconstruct the Gaudreau - Monahan - Hudler line, but perhaps that had more to do with the struggles of those other two during that stretch away from Gaudreau.



Because it takes two sides to make a trade.

And one of those sides, is a general manager who has not traded the player away. Why has Brad Treliving not traded this player away?




You're operating on this assumption that no one is interested in him. This is a league where a general manager traded a first round pick (Matthew Barzal) for Griffin Reinhart. Where a general manager traded a second round pick (Alex Formenton) for Curtis Lazar. Where a general manager traded a second round pick (Rasmus Andersson) for Sven Baertschi. You sincerely think no general managers have ever made an offer for Sam Bennett?



The only executives who've ever commented on Sam Bennett to my knowledge are Brad Treliving and Craig Conroy. Both of them have explicitly stated that they see him as a centre.

The devils apparently didn’t want him as part of the Hall trade.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I think it was more that the Flames offer was more of a hockey trade instead of a futures trade which they chose

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by TOfan

The devils apparently didn’t want him as part of the Hall trade.

I am not buying that rumour at all. If the rumoured deal of Noah Hanifin and Sam Bennett for an upcoming UFA was ever offered Jersey would have done that so fast it isn't funny. That is a much better return than what they got from the Coyotes which was some B prospects and a magic bean. Combine that with BT being pretty forthcoming he doesn't want to trade Bennett and I think that rumour is hogwash.

[kukkudo]

Damn some of the Bennett defending is coming off very Oileristic. He is what he is a good depth 3rd line player.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think it was more that the Flames offer was more of a hockey trade instead of a futures trade which they chose

True.

More to the point though, I’m sure the Flames have had several offers for Bennett. And I’d guess none of them have been appetizing for Treliving to part from the player. Reading between the lines, the offers must be pretty underwhelming. Speaks to the perceived value of the asset, no? I wouldn’t trade Bennett for a second round pick either if I were Treliving. Bennett’s a controllable 3rd line winger/centre.

If the Flames, or any team for that matter, put a 24 year old C with second line potential on the market, that should net some serious offers.

I’m speculating, but if the Flames haven’t received a palatable offer, it means two things. One, the market for Sam Bennett isn’t strong enough for the Flames to want to move him and two, he’s not seen, league wide, as a player teams will ante up for. No one is offering the Flames enough.

Strange isn’t it? For a team like the Flames who have historically been starved for top 2 C’s they apparently have one in their hands right now, but have failed to see that. Similarly teams throughout the league who would love to add young C’s haven’t stepped up to add Bennett.

I like Bennett, but he’s a third line winger who might be able to play a role as 3C.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I am not buying that rumour at all. If the rumoured deal of Noah Hanifin and Sam Bennett for an upcoming UFA was ever offered Jersey would have done that so fast it isn't funny. That is a much better return than what they got from the Coyotes which was some B prospects and a magic bean. Combine that with BT being pretty forthcoming he doesn't want to trade Bennett and I think that rumour is hogwash.

Well, we don’t know that and I believe the rumour came from Friedman. So it’s likely accurate.

As for Treliving’s comment, I always take what players, GM’s, coaches say publicly with a grain of salt. If someone steps up and offers a player that Treliving thinks will make the team better For Bennett, fairly sure he won’t hesitate to pull the trigger.

[Sandman]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

I don't think that Bennett has ever centred Gaudreau. He played the opposite wing, though. So did Backlund, and that was a failure because Backlund does not play wing well. Backlund is an excellent player at center.

What fans feel when they talk about Bennett is frustration. It's just an argument about the cause of that frustration. The only people that I ever really disagree with are those that feel that Bennett has reached his ceiling. Luckily those posters are few and far between.

I was at a pre-season game a few years back where Bennett centered Gaudreau. I believe he had a goal and 2 assists (at least 1g,1a). Granted, it was just pre-season. There has been at least two other times I can remember (cuz I'm a Bennett fan, so I was watching intently) in the regular season where they played him as Gaudreau's center, but it only lasted a handful of shifts at the most before they were split up again. Not enough time to get any chemistry going.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Yeah, you need to give Bennett at least a 10 game sample size with Gaudreau before you can deem any kind of chemistry among the two. And I don’t believe Monahan is going to ever up his game if he is relying on Johnny to dish him the puck.

[Fan69]

Originally Posted by kukkudo

Damn some of the Bennett defending is coming off very Oileristic. He is what he is a good depth 3rd line player.

Yes 23 year olds just entering prime years are always what they are at 23.
For those that want to trade Bennett you will regret it. Exactly how many home talents do we run out the door because someone else’s project with poorer numbers is ready to break out as far as posters are concerned?

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by Sandman

I was at a pre-season game a few years back where Bennett centered Gaudreau. I believe he had a goal and 2 assists (at least 1g,1a). Granted, it was just pre-season. There has been at least two other times I can remember (cuz I'm a Bennett fan, so I was watching intently) in the regular season where they played him as Gaudreau's center, but it only lasted a handful of shifts at the most before they were split up again. Not enough time to get any chemistry going.

Bennett was probably in the penalty box.