[Trade] Toffoli to Flames for 2022 1st *, 2023 5th, Heineman, and Pitlick

[chummer]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Almost never until after they are built.

If we thought Calgary had built a cup winmer then sure you can justify spending a first, but I have no idea how we would think this.

They finished 1st in the Pacific, Vegas had them in the top 5 to win the cup.

It didn't work that way, and yet here you are saying "I told you so". Who does that? Oh ya, a loser.

[dino7c]

Flyers lost in the 2nd round scoring 3 goals

Traded a 1st for a guy they no longer have

Its pretty easy to say I told you so in league where 31 of 32 lose

[djsFlames]

jjhindsight2020 is on a roll.

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by chummer

They finished 1st in the Pacific, Vegas had them in the top 5 to win the cup.

It didn't work that way, and yet here you are saying "I told you so". Who does that? Oh ya, a loser.

https://www.tsn.ca/2021-22-nhl-stanl...odds-1.1765505

Sure, 4 times less likely to win than Colorado puts you in 5th place I guess but it doesn't take a math wizard to see those odds are not great.

Basically it shows the first round spend was officially a hail mary.

When I disliked the trade when it happened, people went I to hysterics on here that anyone would dissent. If people were reasonable and able to think rationally then there would be no need to bring it up now

Also the trade never would have happened

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

https://www.tsn.ca/2021-22-nhl-stanl...odds-1.1765505

Sure, 4 times less likely to win than Colorado puts you in 5th place I guess but it doesn't take a math wizard to see those odds are not great.

Basically it shows the first round spend was officially a hail mary.

When I disliked the trade when it happened, people went I to hysterics on here that anyone would dissent. If people were reasonable and able to think rationally then there would be no need to bring it up now

Also the trade never would have happened

So its a bad trade because they didn't win the cup? because if that is the logic nearly every trade is bad
Go look at all the deadline deals, this one is still one of the best. Maybe go lookup some stats on late first round picks before patting yourself on the back so much.

He wasn't even a rental, this is far from decided...not sure what you think a 50-60 point player is worth

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

https://www.tsn.ca/2021-22-nhl-stanl...odds-1.1765505

Sure, 4 times less likely to win than Colorado puts you in 5th place I guess but it doesn't take a math wizard to see those odds are not great.

Basically it shows the first round spend was officially a hail mary.

When I disliked the trade when it happened, people went I to hysterics on here that anyone would dissent. If people were reasonable and able to think rationally then there would be no need to brng it up now

Also the trade never would have happened

I think that if Toffoli was traded today he would fetch at least a similar return to what the Flames paid. They didn't get a rental.

In addition, at the time of the trade for Toffoli the Flames were as dominant as Colorado. The Defense was clicking, they were scoring at will and the goal-tending was solid. They were on a 6 game winning streak, where they dominated Vegas, Toronto, and the Islanders. That streak turned into a 10 game winning streak.

You keep mentioning how valuable that first is. Who would you have targeted instead of Toffoli. For a 1st, and a prospect? You mentioned defense, so would Chiarot, or Lindholm been your targets? You can still trade Toffoli for someone like Oleksiak/McDonagh, and shore up the defense in this off-season. Would they be the difference in stopping a guy like McDavid? I'm not too certain.

[powderjunkie]

Having an opinion that you don't like a trade is fine, but you're just making stuff up.

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Colorado spent the lowest first pick in the NHL on a goalie because they are structured to value goaltending and D the most, then build out from there. It's not like they spent it on an older winger.

Kuemper could have another 6-8 years on him, and most importantly, he is a proven tournament player that raises his level of play under pressure.

COL was so confident that that pick would be in the 30s that they insisted on top-10 protection? Kuemper is about to be a UFA...and 6-8 years is pretty darn optimistic for an injury prone 32 year old goalie whose career high for starts are: 57 55 31 29* 29 27**.

* 69 game season ** 56 game season

Proven tournament goalie? ARI beat the Preds in qualifying round and lost to the Avs in 5 (3.47/.913). One other year he played 6 playoff games for the Wild. He had good numbers in one World Championship (2.17/.916) and bad numbers two years earlier (2.48/.867). Otherwise you have to go back to his age 17 season in AAA for anything resembling a tournament run.

The Flames consider D/G last, and don't factor in playoff performance at all. Leading them to Toffoli.

If we were stacked with D and playoff performers and first in the NHL and the acquisition target were more appropriate then yeah maybe this would be a different conversation

The Flames consider D/G last because they went into the season so secure in those positions that they didn't need to add at TDL? COL's 6/7/8 were J Johnson/MacDermaid/Ryan Murray (pretty sure already done for the season?). Acquiring Manson pushed Johnson out of the lineup (until Girard got hurt).

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Almost never until after they are built.

If we thought Calgary had built a cup winmer then sure you can justify spending a first, but I have no idea how we would think this.

I don't think CGY was anywhere close to a cup winner and think they should have taken a step back 1-2 years ago instead of chasing it with UFAs, but once they decided that the entire build was leading to these playoffs it would have been silly to not push in.

I see Toffoli as nothing more than a pick deferral - they likely recoup a future 2nd+prospect which are more likely to help the eventual rebuild; the difference is probably a 26 OA in 2022 vs. a ~56 OA in 2024.

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Not sure if you're aware of how degrees work but such a distinction would imply experience with revisionists. Not being a revisionist.

So...yeah. I'm getting that experience here since the same people acting like Toffoli was taking us to the promised land on the first 3 pages are now like "serviceable contract, as I expected". Leaving out the fact that if we acquired a Toffoli in the off-season at his age it would be a 2nd rounder at most, or free.

Hockey fans excited about new player, more at 11.

But yeah, after a consistent 20-goal scorer blows out the candles on his 30th birthday cake he becomes a toxic cap dump if he's earning anything more than $3M.

FWIW, this particular snark isn't directed only at you.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Almost never until after they are built.

If we thought Calgary had built a cup winmer then sure you can justify spending a first, but I have no idea how we would think this.

Calgary looked as good at the deadline as a number of top teams. If you are only comparing to the Avs, sure, then every single other team should have thrown up their hands, stopped trying to improve and just hand the Avs the cup.

Avs had a better centre (maybe not defensively). Calgary had the best winger. Avs had the best offensive defence man. Calgary had the best defensive D man. Calgary had the better goalie. Avs were deeper up front. Calgary had the best coach in the league.

At the TDL the teams were considered to be pretty close.

[GioforPM]

If the Avs value goaltending, why did they let Grubauer go?

[Spinach]

At the time of the deal, the Flames were looking good to make the playoffs with or without Toffoli. But just making it wasn't good enough, given their recent postseason failures; they needed to win a round or two.

Pluses: Given his pedigree, his history with Sutter, and the Flames' lack of right-shot wingers, getting Toffoli seemed like a good idea at the time. Adding a solid second-line player is one thing they needed if they were to advance in the playoffs.

Minuses (pretty much every trade has them): Heineman and especially Pitlick aren't players who are important to the Flames' future. The issue for me is giving up a first when the prospect cupboard still needs work. Also, besides needing a right-shot winger, on paper we lacked (and still do) a true #1 defenceman and offensive depth down the middle. Teams generally don't go far in the playoffs without those.

Treliving would have known that his team would be drafting approximately somewhere between 20th-27th. He didn't know whether they'd be drafting 28th-32nd or not. He knew that dealing his first would mean missing out on a player like Yurov, Bichsel, Gaucher, Mesar, Ostlund, Jagger Firkus (who'd be worth it just for the name) or possibly even a potential dropper such as Owen Pickering or Brad Lambert.

Ah, screw it. It is tough to come to an objective conclusion with the benefit of hindsight, especially since I don't know enough about those prospects to assess their value compared to one part-season and one full season of Tyler Toffoli. Is having any of those guys more important than having Toffoli? We'll know more next year. And maybe that's the conclusion to draw: if he were a pure rental, then it's not a very good trade. Since he's not, it's just questionable right now.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

Kuemper could have another 6-8 years on him, and most importantly, he is a proven tournament player that raises his level of play under pressure.

Don’t be shocked if the AAV’s Neimi him, and go a different way.

Much like the Hawks, the Avs could have won with many different goalies.

Chicago only won because of goaltending when they won their third SC, when they were not a stacked team.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Don’t be shocked if the AAV’s Neimi him, and go a different way.

Much like the Hawks, the Avs could have won with many different goalies.

Chicago only won because of goaltending when they won their third SC, when they were not a stacked team.

See also Detroit. Osgood and Vernon were competent but not the top end in that era.

[blankall]

Honestly I just don't get how any actual fan would be against going for it this year. The team looked great and they had just about as easy a path as you can hope for to the final. At the beginning of the playoffs I had excitement for this team that I haven't had in almost twenty years. This draft is very weak, and we can still flip Toffoli. We may even come out ahead, with a higher pick in a better draft. With Gaudreau potentially walking, this was the year. Didn't work out, but 29/30 teams lose every year. The Flames were in the top eight.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Don’t be shocked if the AAV’s Neimi him, and go a different way.

Much like the Hawks, the Avs could have won with many different goalies.

Chicago only won because of goaltending when they won their third SC, when they were not a stacked team.

Wouldn't surprise me at all. Francouz is a very nice 1B...Kuemper is good, but I'm not sure he inspires enough confidence to warrant a 5M+ AAV.

The trade cost to acquire a less proven $2-4M goalie will probably be a lot cheaper than trying to replace a guy like Nichushkin via trade.

Blackwood at 2.8M could be a really good bang for your buck bet since you're bringing him into a strong room. Or Georgiev.

I wonder if they could get MAF for 3.5M or less?

[Erick Estrada]

I saw nothing out of Kuemper in the playoffs that screams "we have to sign that guy". Avs could have won with pretty well any mediocre goaltender and at times won in spite of him. If I was a goaltender needy team I wouldn't feel great about handing him a long term contract in free agency.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I saw nothing out of Kuemper in the playoffs that screams "we have to sign that guy". Avs could have won with pretty well any mediocre goaltender and at times won in spite of him. If I was a goaltender needy team I wouldn't feel great about handing him a long term contract in free agency.

I think injuries have gotten the best of him, unfortunately.

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by blankall

Honestly I just don't get how any actual fan would be against going for it this year. The team looked great and they had just about as easy a path as you can hope for to the final. At the beginning of the playoffs I had excitement for this team that I haven't had in almost twenty years. This draft is very weak, and we can still flip Toffoli. We may even come out ahead, with a higher pick in a better draft. With Gaudreau potentially walking, this was the year. Didn't work out, but 29/30 teams lose every year. The Flames were in the top eight.

Maybe some people think there can be more to being a fan than just caring about the current season. iI's not written anywhere than fans can't care about the Flames future.

We will see if this draft is weak. Makar's draft was considered to be a particularly weak one too.

I agree with you that things look bleak with the JG situation after this year, but the situation we are headed into (with regards to JG and many other factors such as no notable upcoming prospects) was created by a series of organizational short term, future sacrificing decisions.

That's right, things look bleak going forward because of a high frequency of decisions very much like this one. Sacrificing future for present.

So some fans, who don't like bleak futures, may speak up about that.


Fyi, I was fine with going for it this year with trhe exception of sacrificing our future. You don't do that when your best player is 3 feet tall and can't compete in the playoffs. You don't do that when your fallback guy on defense is Tanev and only Tanev. My thoughts on Flames short term decisions goes way beyond the scope of this thread but there should be no excuses for sacrificing our future, ever, unless we are literally the Stanley Cup favorite.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

It wasn't a rental.
the main problem with the D in the playoffs was they lost their best dman in Tanev.

If you want people to respect your thoughts on this site, then treat others with some level of respect and show that you actually know what you are talking about.

Coming back on here and posting "told you so" is just such awful behavior. It's the time of stuff that drags down communities. Here's a news flash: this site has been debating the Toffoli trade for weeks. You've offered nothing fresh or new except errors.

So if your only point was to come back and somehow pretend that you were "right". Save us. We don't need it. We are just doing fine without that type of non contribution.

Toffoli notwithstanding, and he was not good in the playoffs, we can't be a team that is 1 injury away from being completely useless.

Tanev went down and this team completely imploded.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

https://www.tsn.ca/2021-22-nhl-stanl...odds-1.1765505

Sure, 4 times less likely to win than Colorado puts you in 5th place I guess but it doesn't take a math wizard to see those odds are not great.

Basically it shows the first round spend was officially a hail mary.

When I disliked the trade when it happened, people went I to hysterics on here that anyone would dissent. If people were reasonable and able to think rationally then there would be no need to bring it up now

Also the trade never would have happened

You are looking at odds much later than the TDL.

This says the Flames moved to just behind the Bolts. And had the second best odds in the west:

https://www.cbssports.com/nhl/news/s...etting-market/

With the Flames only potentially meeting the Avs in the west final, and with lots f possible exits for the Avs, your betting odds argument is actually backwards.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by jjgallow

...Fyi, I was fine with going for it this year with trhe exception of sacrificing our future. You don't do that when your best player is 3 feet tall and can't compete in the playoffs. You don't do that when your fallback guy on defense is Tanev and only Tanev. My thoughts on Flames short term decisions goes way beyond the scope of this thread but there should be no excuses for sacrificing our future, ever, unless we are literally the Stanley Cup favorite.

The Flames moved...
2022 1st

2023 5th

Tyler Pitlick

Emil Henieman

...for Tyler Toffoli. Which of those pieces amounts to "the future" in this scenario?

Moreover, and as has already been pointed out to you numerous times in this thread, the Flames were literally considered Stanley Cup favourites at the time this trade was made.

I am tired of your nonsensical, prattling on about this. You should stop.

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