Mark "Fricken" Jankowski (aka The Big Jankowski)

[edslunch]

Jankowski and Sieloff will be Weisbrod's legacy. It will be interesting to look back in a few years to see how they turn out.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I separate Jankowski the pick from Jankowski the player. I think he was a poor pick from the perspective of the Flames needing shorter term and more certain prospects, plus, extenuating circumstances notwithstanding, he just isn't trending to be a special player at this point.

On the other hand, given that he was picked, I'm bullish on him being a decent at least player given his size and skill. Hopefully more.

Teams should never pick who they think is the most NHL ready prospect. That should be the least of their concerns. The most pressing need is to make each pick count, and have choose the best player available at each selection - which means who they think will become the best player down the line.

Flames intensively scouted Jankowski. He doesn't have the normal holes in his games where one expects such as size, skating ability or other apparent weakness. It was a matter of projection and thorough scouting based on his entire history. Flames scouted him enough to satisfy their questions around him. They feel he can project to be a #1 center (Weisbrod compared him to Nieuwendyk).

Why would the Flames have needed someone to step in and contribute right away? Were they 1 prospect away from challenging for the cup? No, they were on the precipice of being forced to rebuild. In hindsight, and from that standpoint, drafting a prospect who they feel has the highest upside left at 14 makes absolutely the most sense. They can afford to be patient. Flames will not be competing for a few years, right? Seems like just the right amount of time to allow a project to develop and see what they have in him.

If he never gets there, then the Flames wasted that pick. If he does, this was an awesome pick. Time will tell which side is proven right. However, making a pick just because he can step into the NHL right away (or asap) is always the wrong approach. Especially for a team like Calgary that was MANY players short of competing for the cup.

Pelech and Nemisz strike me as guys that were both 'closer' to making the NHL than other picks. Injuries derailed Pelech somewhat (part of the argument why he just never developed) and Nemisz doesn't ever look like a guy that will really make a big impact even if he does make the team. Jankowski has the size they both do (height, not frame) but has the skills none of them have. Either way, you don't see Pelech or Nemisz playing in the NHL right now (and I really believe Nemisz will be an everyday NHL'er, though a lower-line support player).

Give me the home-run 1st line talent player every time. Just back it up with reasonable scouting (which the Flames I think did).

[moon]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Flames intensively scouted Jankowski. He doesn't have the normal holes in his games where one expects such as size, skating ability or other apparent weakness. It was a matter of projection and thorough scouting based on his entire history. Flames scouted him enough to satisfy their questions around him. They feel he can project to be a #1 center (Weisbrod compared him to Nieuwendyk).

Give me the home-run 1st line talent player every time. Just back it up with reasonable scouting (which the Flames I think did).

What do you mean he doesn't have holes in his game?

He has more holes in his game than most 1st round picks.

And he is no more of a home-run first line talent than the other guys drafted around him.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Either way, you don't see Pelech or Nemisz playing in the NHL right now

Pelech played 6 games this season surprisingly. But yeah good post.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by moon

What do you mean he doesn't have holes in his game?

He has more holes in his game than most 1st round picks.

And he is no more of a home-run first line talent than the other guys drafted around him.

Sorry, I didn't make my point clear on that at all.

Yes, he does have a lot of holes in his game. I meant he doesn't have the 'usual' holes in his game as other high-ceiling players do that make them later-round risk picks - Gaudreau and the like with size, or a Kabanov with perceived attitude or 'hard work' issues, or players with concussion risks, etc.,.

Jankowski is a project because he has holes of course.

Out of curiosity, what holes do you find in his game?

[moon]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Jankowski is a project because he has holes of course.

Out of curiosity, what holes do you find in his game?

In terms of NHL projection basically his whole game has a big hole in that it is not close to NHL level.

He wasn't good enough to be drafted to the OHL or play any higher than Quebec Highschool level, he isn't good enough to be anything more than a secondary player at the NCAA level and hasn't been good enough to make any rep level teams for Canada.

He needs to improve his scoring, passing, defensive game, physical game and get stronger because right now not a single aspect of his game is at the level of what an NHL projected player should be at or what his peers from the first round are at.

He certainly could improve on all these things but right now it isn't close to good enough in pretty much every aspect.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by moon

In terms of NHL projection basically his whole game has a big hole in that it is not close to NHL level.

He wasn't good enough to be drafted to the OHL or play any higher than Quebec Highschool level, he isn't good enough to be anything more than a secondary player at the NCAA level and hasn't been good enough to make any rep level teams for Canada.

He needs to improve his scoring, passing, defensive game, physical game and get stronger because right now not a single aspect of his game is at the level of what an NHL projected player should be at or what his peers from the first round are at.

He certainly could improve on all these things but right now it isn't close to good enough in pretty much every aspect.

I am at a loss for words as to how to properly respond here.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...NHL-draft.html

At least 30 NHL scouts employed by all 30 teams disagree with you.

Now, you really believe that Jankowski is absolute last in EVERY ASPECT OF HIS GAME as compared to his peers in the 1st round? Let me copy and paste your exact words again:

not a single aspect of his game is at the level of what an NHL projected player should be at or what his peers from the first round are at.

Am I interpreting this correctly? You think he is absolutely LAST in EVERY ASPECT of his game from all the players chosen in the first round that year? Can you clarify this if I am misunderstanding your post?

There are players routinely drafted from the lower rounds that have certain aspects higher than almost any first round pick - but they usually have bigger, more glaring or more numerous holes which put them in the later rounds (Gaudreau was said to have had top 3 skills, but his size issues were a huge hole, Kabanov was thought to have had top 5 pick skills, but his perceived attitude issues pushed him down, etc., Heck, Keegan Kanzig probably ranked in the top 5 at least in terms of 'physicality').

However, you insist that Jankowski is absolutely the worst in every aspect of his game chosen from the first round? Difficult to take your posts seriously when you exaggerate like this.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Teams should never pick who they think is the most NHL ready prospect. That should be the least of their concerns. The most pressing need is to make each pick count, and have choose the best player available at each selection - which means who they think will become the best player down the line.

Flames intensively scouted Jankowski. He doesn't have the normal holes in his games where one expects such as size, skating ability or other apparent weakness. It was a matter of projection and thorough scouting based on his entire history. Flames scouted him enough to satisfy their questions around him. They feel he can project to be a #1 center (Weisbrod compared him to Nieuwendyk).

Why would the Flames have needed someone to step in and contribute right away? Were they 1 prospect away from challenging for the cup? No, they were on the precipice of being forced to rebuild. In hindsight, and from that standpoint, drafting a prospect who they feel has the highest upside left at 14 makes absolutely the most sense. They can afford to be patient. Flames will not be competing for a few years, right? Seems like just the right amount of time to allow a project to develop and see what they have in him.

If he never gets there, then the Flames wasted that pick. If he does, this was an awesome pick. Time will tell which side is proven right. However, making a pick just because he can step into the NHL right away (or asap) is always the wrong approach. Especially for a team like Calgary that was MANY players short of competing for the cup.

Pelech and Nemisz strike me as guys that were both 'closer' to making the NHL than other picks. Injuries derailed Pelech somewhat (part of the argument why he just never developed) and Nemisz doesn't ever look like a guy that will really make a big impact even if he does make the team. Jankowski has the size they both do (height, not frame) but has the skills none of them have. Either way, you don't see Pelech or Nemisz playing in the NHL right now (and I really believe Nemisz will be an everyday NHL'er, though a lower-line support player).

Give me the home-run 1st line talent player every time. Just back it up with reasonable scouting (which the Flames I think did).

I agree that most NHL ready is not the first criteria to consider and it is certainly possible to go too safe. But let's be honest, this is a very risky pick and IMO a team with so few prospects (then) shouldn't have made such a reach pick.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I am at a loss for words as to how to properly respond here.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...NHL-draft.html

At least 30 NHL scouts employed by all 30 teams disagree with you.

I believe that is based on potential not current skills. I still think he could develop into being better than a lot of guys in the 1st round but that as a player right now he is not as good as they are. I am not talking about his projection I am talking about him as a player right now.

Now, you really believe that Jankowski is absolute last in EVERY ASPECT OF HIS GAME as compared to his peers in the 1st round? Let me copy and paste your exact words again:

not a single aspect of his game is at the level of what an NHL projected player should be at or what his peers from the first round are at.

Again right now I do not think his ability is what an NHL projected player should be. He can develop to be at that level but as of right now I think he is behind most NHL projected players.

Am I interpreting this correctly? You think he is absolutely LAST in EVERY ASPECT of his game from all the players chosen in the first round that year? Can you clarify this if I am misunderstanding your post?

Not sure he is last in every category to every other guy just not at the current level of others in any area right now.

I do think you are misunderstanding what I am saying here.

There are players routinely drafted from the lower rounds that have certain aspects higher than almost any first round pick - but they usually have bigger, more glaring or more numerous holes which put them in the later rounds (Gaudreau was said to have had top 3 skills, but his size issues were a huge hole, Kabanov was thought to have had top 5 pick skills, but his perceived attitude issues pushed him down, etc., Heck, Keegan Kanzig probably ranked in the top 5 at least in terms of 'physicality').

Okay not sure what you are getting at here. It seems the big knock on Jankowski was that his overall game wasn't at the level of other players yet but that he had the potential to develop into a better player than he was at the draft. That is my point that right now he needs to develop in every area a lot more than others who were drafted in the first round.

However, you insist that Jankowski is absolutely the worst in every aspect of his game chosen from the first round? Difficult to take your posts seriously when you exaggerate like this.

I have never used the term last in every aspect. That is something you have thrown in and I am not sure why. I said below others that would be NHL projected at this stage in his career. I certainly haven't insisted it at all.

[devo22]

Janko had an assist tonight in a 3-2 win over Dartmouth. He's 7+5 in 18 games now ... second in goals, third in points on the Friars.

[Wastedyouth]

It amazes me how much effort some of you put into trying to convince yourselves that the Jankowski pick was worth it.

Amazing and amusing.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

He made the AHL at age 19 instead of going back to junior. He was going to captain the US WJC team.

He looks great for a 2nd rounder. Keep in mind well over half of 2nd rounders don't even become NHLers.

My thoughts when we first drafted him was that he is small for a defenceman, especially for a defenceman that based his game on hitting with little other skills. At least a player like Dumba has other skills and Kanzig has the size. That Sieloff is having injury problems isn't surprising. I wish the best for him, I just wasn't impressed by making him our 2nd rounder. Feaster even said that if Jankowski was gone they would have taken Sieloff in the first. I kind of choked on that statement.

as for him making the Heat, I think it's another case of Feaster pushing his draft picks when they haven't done much to earn it. He hasn't even played a full season of major junior (45 games) before being injured.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I agree that most NHL ready is not the first criteria to consider and it is certainly possible to go too safe. But let's be honest, this is a very risky pick and IMO a team with so few prospects (then) shouldn't have made such a reach pick.

I guess it all comes down to how everyone views Jankowski as a prospect (do people think he has that high of a ceiling? How big of a risk from busting?), what state the prospect base was at the time (could they support a possible bust, vs the need of adding a high-talent possible franchise type), vs how they view the competency of the Flames at the draft (historically atrocious, but was also one of the smallest scouting departments for years until the last 4 or 5).

I can understand why some feel he was a risk, and the Flames should have drafted a 'safer' pick (though anything can go wrong and safe picks bust too, or injuries derail them).

I myself see the risk as mitigated by having thoroughly scouted Jankowski (and literally Jankowski forcing 50+ scouts to every game in the second half of the season, when those games usually attract zero scouts total) I don't see him being a 'reach' pick since he was selected reasonably close to what people say 'consensus' was (though there is no board, most scouting resources had him anywhere from a late 1st to an early 2nd), and two other teams rumored to have had designs on drafting Jankowski after the Flames in the first.

I can, however, understand why people feel this way, after seeing someone like Maatta in the NHL and performing well. We will all just have to wait and see I guess.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I separate Jankowski the pick from Jankowski the player. I think he was a poor pick from the perspective of the Flames needing shorter term and more certain prospects, plus, extenuating circumstances notwithstanding, he just isn't trending to be a special player at this point.

On the other hand, given that he was picked, I'm bullish on him being a decent at least player given his size and skill. Hopefully more.

This is a good summary of how I feel. I don't mind him as a prospect I just don't like the pick. The "opportunity cost" of the pick was players that look like surer things with similar or higher ceilings, all we gained was Sieloff.

If we took him in the second round then I love the pick. But that we traded down from 15 when some still very good prospects were on the table to then draft a project is what bothers me. And I believe it's one of the big reasons Feaster and Weisbrod were let go.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

It amazes me how much effort some of you put into trying to convince yourselves that the Jankowski pick was worth it.

Amazing and amusing.

Did some fortune teller give you a reading saying Jankowski was going to be a flop? Maybe you should go back and get us the winning 6/49 numbers.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

It amazes me how much effort some of you put into trying to convince yourselves that the Jankowski pick was worth it.

Amazing and amusing.

As someone that has seen Janko live several times, and has watched him play several times, he is the Flames 4th best forward prospect behind only Gaudreau, Monahan and Poirier, on par with Sven (that's because he's regressed a bit)

At the prospect tourney in July, he and Monahan were not far off of one another. Monahan was better, but not by leaps and bounds. Considering they are a month apart or so age wise, that isn't bad.

People who only look at stats are not seeing the whole picture. The Friars play a very defensive style game, basically they are the Minnesota Wild from 6 or 7 years ago of the NCAA. That will limit the offensive totals of everyone. Additionally, the NCAA tends to favour older players vs young NHL picks in terms of ice time. Harrison didn't dress right away for his team because they preferred vets despite him being one of their only drafted guys. Someone on here was saying that Janko was getting 2nd unit PP time. That doesn't help the point totals either.

I have never watched someone that was 6-3 and can skate fast and play at a decent level at age 19 not make the NHL in some capacity. Janko's level of play is at more than a decent level and he is quick for his size. He will play. Whether his offensive abilities translate or not is yet to be determined, but to call him a complete bust is ignorant. He has just as much of a chance to be a top 6 player as any of Sven, Granlund, or Klimchuk, maybe more so because he's the only one that's over 6'.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by moon

I believe that is based on potential not current skills. I still think he could develop into being better than a lot of guys in the 1st round but that as a player right now he is not as good as they are. I am not talking about his projection I am talking about him as a player right now.

I agree that he may be behind MOST of the picks selected in the 1st round (disagree with all), but I do agree that perhaps even more than half the picks in the first round that year are ahead of Jankowski as a player right now.

I have never used the term last in every aspect. That is something you have thrown in and I am not sure why. I said below others that would be NHL projected at this stage in his career. I certainly haven't insisted it at all.

I actually quoted your original post and bolded what this was referring to, and then even copied/pasted in bold again later on in my post, and here it is again:

not a single aspect of his game is at the level of what an NHL projected player should be at or what his peers from the first round are at.

This is what you wrote in your post, and this is exactly what I was referring to. It is not something I am just trying to throw-in to make my point - it is directly copied/pasted from your post (and was directly quoted in my previous reply in this thread).

[Johnny Rotten]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

This is a good summary of how I feel. I don't mind him as a prospect I just don't like the pick. The "opportunity cost" of the pick was players that look like surer things with similar or higher ceilings, all we gained was Sieloff.

If we took him in the second round then I love the pick. But that we traded down from 15 when some still very good prospects were on the table to then draft a project is what bothers me. And I believe it's one of the big reasons Feaster and Weisbrod were let go.

I suspect that is part of the reason Jay Feaster and John Weisbrod were fired also...and I've tried to support the pick of Jankowski and I still hold out hope. But when Olli Maatta was available (who may be playing with Finland during the Olympics) it doesn't look too good yet.

I don't want to sound like a bandwagon fan, because as I say, I still hold out hope for Janko, but if it were a deep team like Detroit that had picked him at #21 and not Calgary-a not so deep team, especially two years ago-then the pick wouldn't have seemed like such a risk.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

This is a good summary of how I feel. I don't mind him as a prospect I just don't like the pick. The "opportunity cost" of the pick was players that look like surer things with similar or higher ceilings, all we gained was Sieloff.

If we took him in the second round then I love the pick. But that we traded down from 15 when some still very good prospects were on the table to then draft a project is what bothers me. And I believe it's one of the big reasons Feaster and Weisbrod were let go.

This is EXACTLY why I like the Jankowski pick - I felt there was no other player available with that ceiling. What prospects are you referring to that had such a high ceiling, and were more of a sure thing? If that is the case, I will 100% agree that this was a bad pick. I don't think there was anyone on the board that had that ceiling left, especially at that position.

Players with similar/higher ceilings that have higher floors (more sure bets to make it) are generally all gone after the first 5-10 picks, especially at center.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

This is what you wrote in your post, and this is exactly what I was referring to. It is not something I am just trying to throw-in to make my point - it is directly copied/pasted from your post (and was directly quoted in my previous reply in this thread).

I still think your wording is different than mine but yes I think I. Terms of offensive, defensive, hockey IQ he is below every other forward in the first round but may have more offense than some if the defencemen.

I think in terms of his overall game at this moment he is not as good a player as every other guy chosen.