2017-2018 Blue Jays Off-Season Thread

[Roof-Daddy]

He nailed it in that article IMO. Getting incrementally better this off season without damaging the future and if it doesnt work you can still sell.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

I’m not even crapping on Granderson the player, I’m crapping on the fact that this has zero strategic direction. Looks like Rogers will not accept a full rebuild in their last few years of ownership to me. Ride this cash cow into the sunset. Refuse to break budget when you are almost at a World Series Level and then refuse to rebuild when its clearly obvious your window has closed. Just frustrating as a fan. MLSE buying this franchise can’t come quick enough. May not spend as much as Rogers but at least they will have a real baseball strategy and follow it without deviation.

They have a strategic direction - and it's quite simple - be profitable and make money. Sadly winning a World Series may or may not fit that strategic direction, and blowing it up and tanking doesn't help that in the short term.

As a fan it sucks since you want your team to be a winner but sadly when a team is owned by a publicly traded company and not just a billionaire with deep pockets that is what happens.

They have a board of directors to answer to and being profitable is a big part of that.

Also you do know that MLSE is 37.5% owned by Rogers and 37.5% owned by Bell...so if MLSE buys it not much might change much from a day to day operations perspective outside of Rogers & Bell consolidating all the Toronto sports franchises under one branch.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

They Re-signed Zeke last week.

I know... that's why I said they should see about parting ways with him if they can get an upgrade in RF.

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Adnan Virk was on the Fan 960 this morning saying he expects Granderson to start 120 games or more for the Jays. Dont’t really see a platoon situation.

Approximately 70% of of MLB pitchers are right-handed... 162x0.7=113.40... that's awfully close to 120. The Jays have Granderson... a lefty who has a noticeable platoon split, the jays have Pearce... a righty who has a reputation as a lefty killer. I anticipate a platoon, It may not be a strict platoon but I'd wager strongly that Granderson will get more maintenance days off against lefties then you'd expect on a random sample.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Stoeten has turned into a bit of a clown over the past few years. He’s started to be not worth reading anymore, which is sad because he used to be pretty good. Just a jays hype machine nowadays that throws out F bombs to attract the Vice News Type crowd. When this team is sitting at the bottom of the AL East for the next few years and the bandwagon is completely empty again, he’s going to have a hard time getting page clicks from long time Jays fans that don’t appreciate being told they are stupid for questioning what this team does.

He might have a point that Granderson was a good signing if we were contending, had a good outfield, and he was being used as a depth pickup. I’d like that signing that too. But he’s completely ignoring that as it stands now, we aren’t contending, Granderson will be a starter in one of our corner position, and he doesn’t address any of our current needs which is to get younger, hit for better average, and improve fielding. In fact, he’s the exact opposite of that.

I’m not even crapping on Granderson the player, I’m crapping on the fact that this has zero strategic direction. Looks like Rogers will not accept a full rebuild in their last few years of ownership to me. Ride this cash cow into the sunset. Refuse to break budget when you are almost at a World Series Level and then refuse to rebuild when its clearly obvious your window has closed. Just frustrating as a fan. MLSE buying this franchise can’t come quick enough. May not spend as much as Rogers but at least they will have a real baseball strategy and follow it without deviation.

Not moving Donaldson was ridiculous. Sure they can move him at the deadline like Stoeten says, but it will be for way less value and what happens if Donaldson gets hurt again? We get pennies on the dollar and there’s a real chance he gets hurt. He’s battled it his whole career.

Donaldson has averaged around 156 games throughout his career, which in the major leagues hasn't been terribly long. Durability though has never been a concern from him aside from last year.

I don't get the outrage on the Granderson move. He's not an Upton clone except for the fact he strikes out a lot. Granderson has a far better eye, is a better defender, and is a tremendous teammate. For $5MM, instead of trading for a McCutchen type? Sign me up...this won't do anything but add flexibility to the roster, and downside is very minimal if anything.

Aside from trading Donaldson, curious to what exactly you'd do differently if you were in Atkins' shoes? It's an aging roster with huge salaries tied up into the aging core, but there is still some relatively strong pieces in place to have one more crack at a division/wild card race if things break for you.

To go all in, they'd have to trade the Vlad/Bo type prospects which is just counter intuitive at this stage, or overpay tremendously for free agents that will take away from financial flexibility when the young prospects are contributing to the Jays at MLB level.

Frankly, I don't disagree with the direction of the team at the moment given where their roster is. If Donaldson could have netted a package of top end prospects right now, I'm sure he'd be well on his way already. Fact is he may be able to contribute to a wild card capable team, so I don't blame Atkins for hanging on to him to see how things play out in the first half.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

If Donaldson could have netted a package of top end prospects right now, I'm sure he'd be well on his way already.

Yeah, Donaldson won't return much... there just isn't a market for position players with so little control remaining. I mean... is there a contending team out there who has a 3B problem big enough to hand over high end prospects for a one year fix?

Maybe the Angels... but then they don't have any high end prospects to part with.

[bluejays]

I agree that using Granderson as your everyday LF isn't noteworthy of a team trying to get the WC spot. As a bench player, no problem - welcomed with open arms. Anyway, I do think the Jays should have looked to retool this off-season with guys who are at their so-called peak. To me those are Pillar, Donaldson and Morales. Simply put, there would be a sucker who would give you something such as a prospect for Pillar's defence and simply the marketing that comes with it; Morales may not have a large market for but you could possibly get a CF or RF for him; and Donaldson you could get a grade A prospect and a player who can play today, at a minimum. So it would be a rebuild (which in baseball I'm personally not a fan of), but rather a retool for the future. Perhaps even next off-season you could then re-sign Donaldson if he's not signed already. They have to work towards something if they're going to cheap out, and if they're working toward the future, they're not going all in. They're neither here nor there, and that's troubling when their valuable FA's just walk away without getting reasonable value for the immediate future in return.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

Donaldson has averaged around 156 games throughout his career, which in the major leagues hasn't been terribly long. Durability though has never been a concern from him aside from last year.

I don't get the outrage on the Granderson move. He's not an Upton clone except for the fact he strikes out a lot. Granderson has a far better eye, is a better defender, and is a tremendous teammate. For $5MM, instead of trading for a McCutchen type? Sign me up...this won't do anything but add flexibility to the roster, and downside is very minimal if anything.

Aside from trading Donaldson, curious to what exactly you'd do differently if you were in Atkins' shoes? It's an aging roster with huge salaries tied up into the aging core, but there is still some relatively strong pieces in place to have one more crack at a division/wild card race if things break for you.

To go all in, they'd have to trade the Vlad/Bo type prospects which is just counter intuitive at this stage, or overpay tremendously for free agents that will take away from financial flexibility when the young prospects are contributing to the Jays at MLB level.

Frankly, I don't disagree with the direction of the team at the moment given where their roster is. If Donaldson could have netted a package of top end prospects right now, I'm sure he'd be well on his way already. Fact is he may be able to contribute to a wild card capable team, so I don't blame Atkins for hanging on to him to see how things play out in the first half.

I don’t think it’s the Granderson move in itself that has people enraged, I think that it’s the culmination of another terrible offseason ending with a signing that really doesn’t make much sense. The Jays should have unloaded last year instead of putting up this BS facade that they were still trying to compete. The fact that Atkins has come out this off-season and said they that really had no real desire to compete so they made a few signings to appease the fan base is revolting and most Blue Jays should take that as a complete slap to te face. This guy told everyone who would listen last year that it was their goal to continue to compete for the World Series.

It’s too late now to unload, even Donaldson would have little value given his upcoming free agency. So it’s time to let some prospects sink or swim like the Astros did for a years. Signing Granderson to be an every day outfielder is pointless. I’m not surprised though that some of the people who argued with me tooth and nail last year that Pierce and Morales were a legitimate baseball moves to improve the team are the same people who have no problem bringing in a 40 year to play the corner outfield positions on a rebuilding team. For some reason the Jays seems to enjoy carte Blanche for criticism from a bigger percentage of their fans than most other sports teams in Canada. If the Flames did something like this they would be getting absolutely roasted.

This team is completely directionless. I have no problem with reducing my payroll, but if you are going to do it, do it right. They didn’t go all in when they should have (it would not have required Guerrero or Bichette back in 2015 or 2016), and they won’t go full rebuild when they should now. Just a holding pattern. Granderson is such a Toronto signing. Complete bust of an offfseason, followed by signing an irrelevant player that people will recognize the name.

[Harry Lime]

Apparently the offers that Darvish has on the table right now are in the 80 to 90 over five years range. It's one of the issues that has the players yelling collusion.

If the ask doesn't go too far beyond that, the Jays would be stupid to not throw their hat in the ring if they were really serious about competing.

Darvish, Stroman, Sanchez vs. Bigiani, Stroman, Sanchez.

[Roof-Daddy]

Darvish improves the rotation for sure but your comparison isnt accurate if you have Biagini in our current top 3. Hes the 5th starter right now at best, behind Stroman Sanchez Estrada and Happ.

[Roof-Daddy]

Darvish cost himself a ton of money by imploding in the playoffs.

[Harry Lime]

I suppose I was using Bigiani as the example because he is the guy who would become the sixth starter. Either way, if the rotation isn't upgraded, I'm going to be way more negative than Oracle by the start of the season.

[Jason14h]

Owners don’t want to give old pitchers who have had Tommy John and have decreasing advanced stats longer then 5 years and 20 million.....

COLLUSION!!!

[bluejays]

Yeah, really. In the world of the Yanks, there isn't outright collusion with A-list players. MLB is a league of haves vs. have-nots, and the highest bidder gets their player. Their PA is so paranoid.

Anyway, I'm not concerned as much about the rotation. I do think that it'll be good enough. The problems I see are twofold: A) Getting on base; B) Situational hitting. Both require discipline and a different skillset, and I don't see the players on the current team having that skillset of not going for the homer (as a whole).

[Jason14h]

Don’t forget being an old team that spends most of the year on IR or battling injury!

[zukes]

Jays signed Al Alburquerque to a minor league deal with an invitation to camp. He's been in the minors more than the majors the lat couple years, but has had decent numbers when called up. He used to be a useful bullpen piece, and is only 31. Worst case, good to have guys in AAA who have done it before.

[TheAlpineOracle]

I don’t want Biagini in the starting rotation at all. He can be/is an elite bullpen arm. Time for him and the Jays to live with that. What’s wrong with being an elite bullpen arm?

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by zukes

Jays signed Al Alburquerque to a minor league deal with an invitation to camp. He's been in the minors more than the majors the lat couple years, but has had decent numbers when called up. He used to be a useful bullpen piece, and is only 31. Worst case, good to have guys in AAA who have done it before.

And his name is nothing short of awesome. I bet the Jays Store hopes he doesn’t ever pull it all together. They were mad at me when I was there and had them make me up an Encarnacion jersey and Al puts his last name to shame.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Apparently the offers that Darvish has on the table right now are in the 80 to 90 over five years range. It's one of the issues that has the players yelling collusion.

Bah, there's no collusion. Here's the deal...

1: Luxery Tax got beefed up so the big dogs (spending wise) aren't as carefree with the dollars.
2: The Yankee's just traded for the huge contract of Giancarlo Stanton.
3: there are a few really good teams and a whole lot of "meh" teams and the "meh" teams aren't jazzed about spending big $$ on the middle class (2 WAR) free agents.
4: Next years free agent class... http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/free-agents/2019/... it's amazing. Some payroll is probably being held fallow to attract one of those guys.

So yeah, teams just don't have a lot of incentive to go hog wild this year. The usual big bidders are trying to reset their luxury tax and anticipating next years class.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Bah, there's no collusion. Here's the deal...

1: Luxery Tax got beefed up so the big dogs (spending wise) aren't as carefree with the dollars.
2: The Yankee's just traded for the huge contract of Giancarlo Stanton.
3: there are a few really good teams and a whole lot of "meh" teams and the "meh" teams aren't jazzed about spending big $$ on the middle class (2 WAR) free agents.
4: Next years free agent class... http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/free-agents/2019/... it's amazing. Some payroll is probably being held fallow to attract one of those guys.

So yeah, teams just don't have a lot of incentive to go hog wild this year. The usual big bidders are trying to reset their luxury tax and anticipating next years class.

Add to that that a lot of the big market big spenders (Boston / New York / Chicago / LAD) have done a great job of drafting and building from within.

Those teams draft better, develop talent better, and now they no longer have as many holes that they need to fill by spending in free agency.

The teams that do have holes are smaller market teams that don't have the money to spend. Hence the market is at a stand still.

[Roof-Daddy]

Stroman, Sanchez, Estrada and Happ are going to be huge for this team this year. If they can all stay healthy and effective, the 4 of them could be good enough for a combined 5-6 win improvement over last season. Probably not likely though, and after these 4 the quality drops off a cliff.

I just don't see how management can go without adding another starting pitcher capable of 2 WAR or better. Unless of course they think at least one of Biagini, Borucki, Pannone or Guerrieri are about ready to break out.