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Old 12-04-2021, 05:30 PM   #101
BoLevi
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Man between this thread, the rittenhouse thread and the ongoing violence in America thread it really isn’t America anymore it’s Amessica. I don’t care which side of the debate your on anymore if you can’t see that there is a clear issue with civilians and guns in America you’re purposefully turning a blind eye to an exceedingly urgent issue. Embarrassing to watch from the sidelines.
The interesting question is:

Do the values that were the reason for the success of the USA also confer negative traits and can these traits be mitigated without also compromising the benefits?
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Old 12-04-2021, 05:39 PM   #102
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The interesting question is:

Do the values that were the reason for the success of the USA also confer negative traits and can these traits be mitigated without also compromising the benefits?
You deem that question interesting? I deem that interesting… I deem the question posed as a sad reflection as to where Americans and that country as a whole finds themselves. The constitution is ancient and the right to bare arms and how it relates to the 2nd amendment is so tragically outdated that it’s no wonder we are seeing the type of extreme tragic violence to the degree that we are seeing it in America. Mitigation starts and ends with amending the 2nd amendment and catching it up to today’s technology and standards. I don’t care what you’re hunting but chances are you don’t need to mow down 100 deer, moose or duck in under a minute. I don’t care if you are indeed defending yourself I don’t think guns that can inflict the type of carnage that are accessible for gun owners down there should be accessible. Will it end all gun violence and death?? Obviously not, but it would undoubtedly save lives and make the country generally safer.

I mean the ex husband didn’t show up with a gun pulled, the new BF and ex wife could have easily engaged the locks on their house and phoned 911 to handle it. I mean with kids involved is it shocking that emotions were high?? And the response to that was a pump action shotgun??? Like of course someone got shot.
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Old 12-04-2021, 05:44 PM   #103
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The interesting question is:

Do the values that were the reason for the success of the USA also confer negative traits and can these traits be mitigated without also compromising the benefits?
No, Yes

Gun rights are already limited severely. You don’t get to own nuclear weapons. The lack of citizens being able to own nuclear weapons as intended by the constitution has not impaired American exceptionalism.
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Old 12-04-2021, 05:44 PM   #104
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You deem that question interesting? I deem that interesting… I deem the question posed as a sad reflection as to where Americans and that country as a whole finds themselves. The constitution is ancient and the right to bare arms and how it relates to the 2nd amendment is so tragically outdated that it’s no wonder we are seeing the type of extreme tragic violence to the degree that we are seeing it in America. Mitigation starts and ends with amending the 2nd amendment and catching it up to today’s technology and standards. I don’t care what you’re hunting but chances are you don’t need to mow down 100 deer, moose or duck in under a minute. I don’t care if you are indeed defending yourself I don’t think guns that can inflict the type of carnage that are accessible for gun owners down there should be accessible. Will it end all gun violence and death?? Obviously not, but it would undoubtedly save lives and make the country generally safer.

I mean the ex husband didn’t show up with a gun pulled, the new BF and ex wife could have easily engaged the locks on their house and phoned 911 to handle it. I mean with kids involved is it shocking that emotions were high?? And the response to that was a pump action shotgun??? Like of course someone got shot.
But a US population that was willing to amend the constitution to such a degree may not be a population also capable of achieving the success that the US has had.

If you take away the desire that Americans' have for liberty and personal responsibility, you may also eliminate their desire for the free markets, capitalism, and other personal liberties that got them where they are. You're assuming that these things can be achieved a la carte.
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Old 12-04-2021, 05:52 PM   #105
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Lol so the success that America has had is largely based on or attributed to their great history of lax laws around gun ownership?

I’d like to attribute their success to their entrepreneurial spirit, drive for innovation, world leaders on the free markets and capitalism you speak of… not their ‘right to bare AR15’s’

If they took that away from Americans and that pissed them off where are they going to storm off to so they can hang on to those beloveded fire arms?? Almost every 1st world nation has stricter and more well defined gun laws than America so it wouldn’t leave those who felt their personal liberties had been assaulted with much options.

It’s a ridiculous argument and it’s laughable to me the lengths some go to justifying the ownership of war time weaponry among common folk. It’s insanity and the daily and hourly carnage in America is the sad fingerprint of this reality.
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Old 12-04-2021, 05:56 PM   #106
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America's success is almost entirely based on oceans separating it from other great powers, and the incredible amount of arable land and wealth of natural resources. And the diaspora of so many Euro countries after various great European wars.

There's nothing special about the American "spirit" or "freedoms".
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Old 12-04-2021, 06:00 PM   #107
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Well I don’t fully agree with you there, the freedoms afforded in America and really we can add in Canada or consider it North American or ‘western’ freedoms are part of what’s brought so many different ethnicities and peoples to these lands who in turn through generations of hard work have helped build and create fabrics of westernized culture that have helped build so much diversity and unique opportunity that is honestly still the rival of much of the world. To attribute any of that success to the 2nd amendment is extremely odd to me though.
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Old 12-04-2021, 06:38 PM   #108
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ya, it will be interesting to see how the law plays out on this.

On your first paragraph, those actions would only be something a parent could control.

On the second paragraph, it seems that the school/teachers should be similarly culpable.
The teachers would only be culpable if the parents told them they had just bought a brand shiny new hand gun because the viagra wasnt enough for dad and now it has gone missing and they think the kid has it, if the school has no idea that the kid has a gun they are not culpable
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Old 12-04-2021, 06:41 PM   #109
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But a US population that was willing to amend the constitution to such a degree may not be a population also capable of achieving the success that the US has had.

If you take away the desire that Americans' have for liberty and personal responsibility, you may also eliminate their desire for the free markets, capitalism, and other personal liberties that got them where they are. You're assuming that these things can be achieved a la carte.
what got America where it is is the same thing that blessed Canada and Australia, we were all lucky enough to steal a vast land full of abundant natural resources that were relatively easy to dig up and sell, being American had nothing to do with it, frankly Germans and Dutch work harder and are a sight more productive
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Old 12-04-2021, 07:04 PM   #110
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Lol so the success that America has had is largely based on or attributed to their great history of lax laws around gun ownership?

I’d like to attribute their success to their entrepreneurial spirit, drive for innovation, world leaders on the free markets and capitalism you speak of… not their ‘right to bare AR15’s’

If they took that away from Americans and that pissed them off where are they going to storm off to so they can hang on to those beloveded fire arms?? Almost every 1st world nation has stricter and more well defined gun laws than America so it wouldn’t leave those who felt their personal liberties had been assaulted with much options.

It’s a ridiculous argument and it’s laughable to me the lengths some go to justifying the ownership of war time weaponry among common folk. It’s insanity and the daily and hourly carnage in America is the sad fingerprint of this reality.
I didn't say (nor do I think), that American attitudes towards gun ownership is the reason for their success. There is no causation there.

Rather I am saying that the attributes that make them successful can lead to good and bad outcomes. People think there is a simple policy decision to be made that isn't being made. Perhaps you can't adjust the outcomes without adjusting the attributes.
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Old 12-04-2021, 07:08 PM   #111
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what got America where it is is the same thing that blessed Canada and Australia, we were all lucky enough to steal a vast land full of abundant natural resources that were relatively easy to dig up and sell, being American had nothing to do with it, frankly Germans and Dutch work harder and are a sight more productive
All land is stolen land.

Anyway, Canada has its own issues that can be traced back in a relatively fundamental way: our national identity is basically institutionalized/populace-level naivete. We don't have american style gun problems, but we have a variety of other insidious issues that are pretty unpleasant.
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Old 12-04-2021, 08:26 PM   #112
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All land is stolen land.

Anyway, Canada has its own issues that can be traced back in a relatively fundamental way: our national identity is basically institutionalized/populace-level naivete. We don't have american style gun problems, but we have a variety of other insidious issues that are pretty unpleasant.
Im sure this sounds smart in your head but it's just a pile of nonsense.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk
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Old 12-04-2021, 09:04 PM   #113
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America's success is almost entirely based on oceans separating it from other great powers, and the incredible amount of arable land and wealth of natural resources. And the diaspora of so many Euro countries after various great European wars.

There's nothing special about the American "spirit" or "freedoms".
What about the H-1B?

Last edited by DoubleF; 12-04-2021 at 09:06 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 12-04-2021, 09:50 PM   #114
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All land is stolen land.

Anyway, Canada has its own issues that can be traced back in a relatively fundamental way: our national identity is basically institutionalized/populace-level naivete. We don't have american style gun problems, but we have a variety of other insidious issues that are pretty unpleasant.
Do you think America has it right specifically when it comes to gun culture, gun laws, the way they view things about guns and the number of guns, etc.?
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Old 12-04-2021, 09:56 PM   #115
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Do you think America has it right specifically when it comes to gun culture, gun laws, the way they view things about guns and the number of guns, etc.?
I don't think that the way Americans embrace guns is a positive.
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Old 12-04-2021, 10:00 PM   #116
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I love guns and even I think the way they're treated in the US is disgusting
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Old 12-04-2021, 10:07 PM   #117
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I don't think that the way Americans embrace guns is a positive.
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I love guns and even I think the way they're treated in the US is disgusting
Correct.
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