[Rumour] 31 Thoughts: "there’s been plenty of groundwork done"

[underGRADFlame]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Barring an impossible run Treliving has no choice but to shake this core up there are no other options so he needs to have that groundwork done

Regardless of if the team was to go on a run, even if they were to win the last game of the year, this core is done... I think there are some significant moves in the off season, starting with JG.

IMO at least

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by underGRADFlame

Regardless of if the team was to go on a run, even if they were to win the last game of the year, this core is done... I think there are some significant moves in the off season, starting with JG.

IMO at least

The run this team would need to go on would basically have them running the table, getting in the playoffs and going deep. Even if they win their final 14 games, get in and lose in 7 to the Leafs change would be needed.

This team needs the second or third round of the playoffs and considering it is next to impossible for them to make it we can be certain big changes are coming to the core. This will be a different team next year significantly.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The picks traded away versus acquired were very narrowly in the red before this last series of trades, but it’s pretty close.

Treliving’s two biggest mistakes were completely rational. Acquiring a defensive RHS D to complement Gio, Hamilton and Brodie (he just missed on assessing the player) and getting a big consistent 20+ goal RW (he didn’t do off ice DD well enough). Both of those things were completely understandable, but set the team back in the result. But imagine Tanev instead of Hamonic. Imagine, say, Oshie or Hornqvist or someone else of the same age and money instead and the same moves look great. And, at the time, who would have said Tanev and Hamonic were much different, or Neal and Hornqvist?

This may be true if you give higher value to the players acquired based on their draft positions, but there's a bit more to the analysis...while the picks more/less even out, we've missed out on ELC (and potential bridge) value years


Full life cycle of #12 and #15OA picks - with lots of uncertainty
Full life cycle of four 2nd rd picks - even more uncertainty

vs.

3 yrs Hamilton (age 22-25)
6 yrs Lindholm (age 24-29)
6 yrs Hanifin (age 22-27)
3 yrs Hamonic (age 27-29)


Of course it boils down to what happens with the picks. It's nice to have recovered some of the 2nds, but they are delayed and have opened a notable gap in sustaining success (which we are just barely beginning to feel, despite a lack of success).

If the core were good, then the better certainty of the players we acquired might have been worth it. Of course it's also easy to say Hamilton = moderate win and Hamonic = big loss. I think it's better to look at things collectively...the picks from the Elliott and Smith trades should also be evaluated this way.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I only see one season when he outproduced Johnny. I still hold the opinion that it would be Konecny+ for Johnny.

Last season 0.92 to Johnny's 0.83
This season 0.78 to Johnny's 0.74

That's with two full minutes less ice time per game too, and I haven't looked, but probably less PP time as well.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

This may be true if you give higher value to the players acquired based on their draft positions, but there's a bit more to the analysis...while the picks more/less even out, we've missed out on ELC (and potential bridge) value years


Full life cycle of #12 and #15OA picks - with lots of uncertainty
Full life cycle of four 2nd rd picks - even more uncertainty

vs.

3 yrs Hamilton (age 22-25)
6 yrs Lindholm (age 24-29)
6 yrs Hanifin (age 22-27)
3 yrs Hamonic (age 27-29)


Of course it boils down to what happens with the picks. It's nice to have recovered some of the 2nds, but they are delayed and have opened a notable gap in sustaining success (which we are just barely beginning to feel, despite a lack of success).

If the core were good, then the better certainty of the players we acquired might have been worth it. Of course it's also easy to say Hamilton = moderate win and Hamonic = big loss. I think it's better to look at things collectively...the picks from the Elliott and Smith trades should also be evaluated this way.

And so should the picks from the Glencross (which the Flames didn't do much with), Russell (turned into Dube), Hudler (turned into Parsons and Kouz) and Baertschi (turn into Rasmus) trades. Hell, trading David Jones got the Flames Matthew Phillips (and now I know why Scorpion loves him so much). And trading Keegan Kanzig got the Flames Dustin Wolf!

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by underGRADFlame

Regardless of if the team was to go on a run, even if they were to win the last game of the year, this core is done... I think there are some significant moves in the off season, starting with JG.

IMO at least

I think it should start with Backlund and Gio, the two longest standing Flames and team leaders throughout these disappointing years.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by neo45

Agreed because of upside. Konecny doesn’t have a 100 point ceiling like Johnny very obviously does. He can marginally out produce him one season but then literally put up half his points the next





Philly is a good offensive team, he’s 6th on their squad in points (Johnny’s never been lower than 2nd) so is he really driving the offense? Last year he was top scorer and I don’t watch a ton of their games

Is Johnny's ceiling 100 points because he almost did it once in the fairytale season of 2018/19? Because his career ppg is less than 1. I'd say Johnny will be ppg at best going forward which is still likely to be higher than Konecny.

I do think people over value Johnny, and others on this team, due to the outlier of a season in 2018/19. And we know how that season ended.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

And so should the picks from the Glencross (which the Flames didn't do much with), Russell (turned into Dube), Hudler (turned into Parsons and Kouz) and Baertschi (turn into Rasmus) trades. Hell, trading David Jones got the Flames Matthew Phillips (and now I know why Scorpion loves him so much). And trading Keegan Kanzig got the Flames Dustin Wolf!

Other than Baertschi, those were necessary and typical rebuilding trades of pre-existing players. Of course we can add Lazar and Shinkaruk, round and round we go.


A rebuild should have a surplus of picks.

[McG]

Pointing out that “groundwork” literally means “I will talk to you and all other NHL GMs because it is my job before I make any trade”. In other words, “I didn’t get anything done but my fan base is going crazy so please put in there that I did work for later”.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Last season 0.92 to Johnny's 0.83
This season 0.78 to Johnny's 0.74

That's with two full minutes less ice time per game too, and I haven't looked, but probably less PP time as well.

Playing with Couturier and Voracek, 1st unit PP time, and a much better PP unit. Versus Gaudreau playing with a broken Sean Monahan and insert 4th line winger here in a dump and chase system. I like Konecny but in no universe is he a more talented player than Gaudreau.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by McG

Pointing out that “groundwork” literally means “I will talk to you and all other NHL GMs because it is my job before I make any trade”. In other words, “I didn’t get anything done but my fan base is going crazy so please put in there that I did work for later”.

You are making it sound like this is a Treliving quote or something?

Friedman is the guy making the comment

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Playing with Couturier and Voracek, 1st unit PP time, and a much better PP unit. Versus Gaudreau playing with a broken Sean Monahan and insert 4th line winger here in a dump and chase system. I like Konecny but in no universe is he a more talented player than Gaudreau.

Not sure why you quoted me?

I never said anything about Konecny being more talented.

I just pointed out the fact that he's younger, signed to a better contract with more term, and out produced Gaudreau for two seasons now with less ice time.

But hey, if Treliving can get Philly to trade him for Gaudreau (or as EE said Konecny + for Gaudreau), all the power to him. I'd be one happy camper.

[CSharp]

I sure hope the groundwork is paving the way for Eichel to reach Calgary.

[McG]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

You are making it sound like this is a Treliving quote or something?

Friedman is the guy making the comment

Understood and I was pointing out the superfluousness of the comment; since Calgary was specifically mentioned as doing “groundwork” it doesn’t seem unreasonable for Treliving to have supplied some commentary about it. Understood that it wasn’t a quote but an observation from Friedman that could be anywhere from wild conjecture to an interpretation of a quote.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Other than Baertschi, those were necessary and typical rebuilding trades of pre-existing players. Of course we can add Lazar and Shinkaruk, round and round we go.


A rebuild should have a surplus of picks.

And it obviously will, assuming they've made that call. If your point is that they assessed the team too highly and spent picks on that basis, well, sure, but so did most posters here. But if the two moves I cited worked according to plan (which I say could easily have happened based on the type of players being sought), this team looks a lot different, and better, even with the Bennett pick not working. With that in mind, you have to assume they still need to trade Hamilton to get Lindholm and Hanifin, so your D would look like it does now, except you might still have Brodie, because (a) you didn't need to get Kadri with a good RW already in place and Lindholm therefore at C and you don't have Lucic - you have a top line RW.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Calgary & Philadelphia probably active preparing to trade with one another

When you look at their depth charts, it’s hard to see a match.

Flyers LW:

Giroux
JVR
Farabee

Where does Gaudreau fit? The Flyers don’t have problems at forward, they desperately need an upgrade on defence, especially RD. Are the Flames going to move Tanev or Anderson?

[Demaeon]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

When you look at their depth charts, it’s hard to see a match.

Flyers LW:

Giroux
JVR
Farabee

Where does Gaudreau fit? The Flyers don’t have problems at forward, they desperately need an upgrade on defence, especially RD. Are the Flames going to move Tanev or Anderson?

I assumed he would play on the right side with Voracek pushing him.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Demaeon

I assumed he would play on the right side with Voracek pushing him.

I assumed he would look great on Jack Hughes wing for the next six years.

[The Cobra]

Johnny may be a talented offensive player, but he really does nothing to help Philly become a good team.

Offer them Hanafin and you’ll perhaps catch their attention.

I don’t see them as particularly good trade partners, other than both would like to make some trades.

Philly would likely like to trade some older forwards for some defensive help, or perhaps a new goalie. If they could somehow dump Voracek and Giroux and pick up a Tanev and a Markstrom, Philly might be a playoff team. But they’d really like younger versions of Tanev and Markstrom.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Demaeon]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

I assumed he would look great on Jack Hughes wing for the next six years.

I assumed they would be on the wing together.