Wine! All things wine

[troutman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

It's all in your head....

Research agrees:

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showth...ght=wine+snobs


The world of wine has numerous myths and exaggerations that are only now being disproven scientifically, yet they influence perceptions and expectancies. Not even professional tasters are immune to the strong effects of expectancies. Therefore, the need for blind tasting continues.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by troutman

Research agrees:

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showth...ght=wine+snobs


The world of wine has numerous myths and exaggerations that are only now being disproven scientifically, yet they influence perceptions and expectancies. Not even professional tasters are immune to the strong effects of expectancies. Therefore, the need for blind tasting continues.

What does that have to do with the shape of the glass?

[Fuzz]

I've always been interested in the studies that show in a blind tests people can't always tell a red from a white, let alone an expensive wine from a cheap one.

Now, I know some wines are just awful but I've found the difference in value is not a flat curve. Like, a $15 wine probably is twice as good as a $7 one(on average) but a $30 wine is maybe only 25% better than the $15 one. And a $100 wine is maybe 10% better than that. I've only had a $250 wine once and I wouldn't say it was much better than the $100 ones. I probably couldn't assign a value properly given a bunch of wines between $50 and $500. I'd take 4 $50 bottles over 1 $200 one any day.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

What does that have to do with the shape of the glass?

Do you think it makes a difference? Than it does. But not really. What plausible theory is there for the shape of the glass making any difference? I suspect it is all marketing, much like all other aspects of the wine industry.

Found a blog more specific to shape of glass:

http://www.winetasting-demystified.c...ing-glass.html

Delwiche and Pelchat, 2002 did a very thorough study comparing four glass shapes on aromatic perceptions. The tasters were blind-folded and didn’t know the purpose of the experiment. Differences in perceptions of aromatic attributes were noted but were described as subtle by the authors.

Russell et al. 2005 conducted a study to determine the effect of glass shape on perceptions of phenolics, these compounds imparting astringency, bitterness and giving some “structure” to wines. The hypothesis was that a large opening would facilitate oxidation of these compounds and therefore decrease the perceptions of astringency and bitterness. Again some slight differences were noted, but were “not profound enough” to affect the sensory qualities of the wines.

Margaret Cliff This research supports the use of the ISO glass for the evaluation of a broad spectrum of wines."

In many other attributes of wine, our senses have been shown to be influenced by our perceptions. The best "expert wine tasters" in the world have been shown to be very unreliable in distinguishing wines, in controlled blind tests.

What have I concluded from all these studies - there is a whole lot of BS, and that you should sample and buy wine that tastes good to you. Don't be influenced by place of origin, labels, brands, prices. Support Canadian wineries. Make your own wine. You should not have to spend much more than $20 for a very satisfying bottle of wine. A bottle of cava, prosecco or BC sparkling wine can be just as good as "champagne".

[troutman]

https://vinepair.com/wine-blog/wine-glass-placebo/

Do different wines really need different glasses? Does the shape of a glass actually affect taste? Or is this a new kind of snake oil being sold to the aspirational set eager to convince others of their olfactory prowess?

In 2000, two scientists set out to test the hypothesis and the proceeds were published in 2002 in the Journal of Sensory Studies. Jeannine Delwiche and Marcia Pelchat of the Monell Chemical Senses Center gave subjects four glasses to smell and drink from with the same wine in them: a square-shaped crystal water goblet, a standard, cheap restaurant wine glass, a Riedel Chardonnay glass, and a Riedel Bordeaux glass.
They created a nifty blindfold out of goggles, to prevent the aesthetics of each glass from interfering in the way the subjects judged the smell and taste of the wine, and they also created a chin-rest, to control for distance from the glass.

Their conclusion was not good news for Riedel. “For the intensity ratings of most attributes, no significant difference was found between the glasses,” they write. (There was, bizarrely, a difference between the way men and women rated the “mustiness” of the wines; women rated it higher than the men.) Otherwise, “The only significant finding was that likers of red wine gave higher liking ratings than did dislikers of red wine, which is as one would expect.” There was a small difference in intensity that the subjects registered—the aroma of the wine from the Bordeaux glass registered as “less intense,” probably because it is taller, and the wine further from the nose. But overall, they concluded, “None of the correlations are significant.”

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by BigRed

20 bucks? Buy 100 and I'll buy 50 from you! What did you pay?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Sorry went back and saw that I got them mixed up. I meant Tommasi Amarone. It is usually around $55 and you can get it at Costco for $35.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by troutman

Do you think it makes a difference? Than it does. But not really. What plausible theory is there for the shape of the glass making any difference? I suspect it is all marketing, much like all other aspects of the wine industry.

Found a blog more specific to shape of glass:

http://www.winetasting-demystified.c...ing-glass.html

Delwiche and Pelchat, 2002 did a very thorough study comparing four glass shapes on aromatic perceptions. The tasters were blind-folded and didn’t know the purpose of the experiment. Differences in perceptions of aromatic attributes were noted but were described as subtle by the authors.

Russell et al. 2005 conducted a study to determine the effect of glass shape on perceptions of phenolics, these compounds imparting astringency, bitterness and giving some “structure” to wines. The hypothesis was that a large opening would facilitate oxidation of these compounds and therefore decrease the perceptions of astringency and bitterness. Again some slight differences were noted, but were “not profound enough” to affect the sensory qualities of the wines.

Margaret Cliff This research supports the use of the ISO glass for the evaluation of a broad spectrum of wines."

In many other attributes of wine, our senses have been shown to be influenced by our perceptions. The best "expert wine tasters" in the world have been shown to be very unreliable in distinguishing wines, in controlled blind tests.

What have I concluded from all these studies - there is a whole lot of BS, and that you should sample and buy wine that tastes good to you. Don't be influenced by place of origin, labels, brands, prices. Support Canadian wineries. Make your own wine. You should not have to spend much more than $20 for a very satisfying bottle of wine. A bottle of cava, prosecco or BC sparkling wine can be just as good as "champagne".

I half agree with this. Clearly our experience of a wine is powerfully affected by our perceptions, but wines do also differ in noticeable ways depending upon climate etc. Areas of cooler weather do result in less ripening, lower sugar and higher acid, resulting in wines with lower alcohol and higher acidity, as one example. That can be detected in the palate, so paying attention to origin is worthwhile. Also, different grapes also obviously have different characteristics, so that makes a difference too. You can learn about basic things like that and it helps with choosing wines you like more often.

On the other hand, I really agree with buying what you like. I get great pleasure out of wine, but I know my experience has been shaped by training. I could enjoy more wine beforehand and would have been just as right in deciding what tasted good. It is all in our heads, and the winners are those who can enjoy the most for the most reasonable prices.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I half agree with this. Clearly our experience of a wine is powerfully affected by our perceptions, but wines do also differ in noticeable ways depending upon climate etc. Areas of cooler weather do result in less ripening, lower sugar and higher acid, resulting in wines with lower alcohol and higher acidity, as one example. That can be detected in the palate, so paying attention to origin is worthwhile. Also, different grapes also obviously have different characteristics, so that makes a difference too. You can learn about basic things like that and it helps with choosing wines you like more often.

Fair point - I would add to that, every year in a growing region is different too. Wines from the same label/grape can vary greatly from year to year.

There is recent research that suggests champagne can help prevent dementia. I volunteer to be a trial candidate!

[nik-]

With a box of wine, how should one properly store it in the fridge? Upright or on its side?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by nik-

With a box of wine, how should one properly store it in the fridge? Upright or on its side?

If you store it upright I'd suspect the sediments would settle near the nozzle, so your first glass every time is going to have some of that in it. I keep mine on the counter though, since they don't keep it in a refrigerator at the liquor store, I figure they are fine. I keep it upright until I need to pour a nice glass. That's of course for reds.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by troutman

Do you think it makes a difference? Than it does. But not really. What plausible theory is there for the shape of the glass making any difference?

Well, there is the SA arcticle quoted in OMG's post.
I am looking for the psychological explanation for why I noticed a difference the first time I tried it when I knew nothing and did not care either way. It wasn't someone trying to sell me glasses. Why would I notice a difference in smell and taste when I didn't know I was supposed to?

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as I would go US-Chile-Italy-Ausralia-Canada-etc. I personally cannot stand French wine for the most part, even the very expensive, but I love California wines. Canada wines are generally overpriced, but there are some gems.

I used to think French wine was no good. But after really trying a lot, it's unquestionably the best. Value might not be there for Canadian buyers (exchange rate, import duties, mark-ups etc) but on a pure quality basis. It truly stands the test. Most new world wine is frankly too bold, too fruity, too imbalanced. French wine, first, has the best selection of high quality wines of any country and has the most pressure from the domestic market to produce high quality wines.

In any case, a trip to a french wine region and a deep dive is recommended. I would suggest Alsace, Loire, Burgundy or the Rhone Valley for a week.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Well, there is the SA arcticle quoted in OMG's post.
I am looking for the psychological explanation for why I noticed a difference the first time I tried it when I knew nothing and did not care either way. It wasn't someone trying to sell me glasses. Why would I notice a difference in smell and taste when I didn't know I was supposed to?

Oops, I drove right by that article. The finding is interesting - "When this mesh is placed on top of a wine glass, colour images from a camera watching over the mesh on top of a glass of wine can be interpreted to map the concentration distribution of ethanol leaving the glass."

But, this was not a blind test involving human tasters. Can we actually distinguish the differences predicted?

[Tinordi]

My take on the shape of the glass is that it doens't really matter. I think it's mostly been marketing by Riedel to fool aspiring wine connoisseurs.

Going back to France, many households, restaurants use one standard wine glass for any wine. Even champagne is served in a straight up wine glass as opposed to the flutes (though the flutes are very common).

This idea that you need some special glass to enjoy a Bordeaux or another glass to enjoy a Burgundy is frankly, silly.

Though you shouldn't decant a Burgundy. It should decant in the glass.

[troutman]

Saturday Night Live Is Releasing Four Limited Edition Wines

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articl...ited-time.html

[Parallex]

Honestly, I have no idea whether the glass makes any difference. I use the different types of glasses but I mostly have them for entertaining because serving the white wine aperitif in one glass and the Main course Red in another seems more "fancy schmancy". If I'm having a glass of inexpensive Chianti with Wednesday night Pizza Hut I'll just use the short stemmed dessert wine glasses I have because they're the easiest to clean (They're also what I give my daughter to use at fancier dinners when she get's "kid wine" AKA grape juice) and I've never really noticed a difference when having the same wine in a Bordeaux glass.

[station]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

This is awesome. Good luck with it!

Out of curiosity, how are you planning for future climate change with your current plantings? I've often thought about investing in potential vineyard lands in BC in areas that are not currently ideal but are forecast to become suitable vineyard land with continued climate change.

The northern Okanagan and Shuwswap area is a good example of that, but as such an area in transition do you give much thought to the appropriateness of current varietal selection for how vineyard conditions may change 15 years from now?

Thanks!

You raise a good point. I have considered that issue but I'm not quite sure how to approach it given the complexities of climate and weather, especially on the micro-climate level. Anecdotally, my family has been in this area for around 100 years and we've definitely seen a trend here toward a warmer and drier climate. Typically the fruit that does well here are apples, pears, and cherries but we have a few dozen peach trees on this land that were planted 30~ years ago and have been quite successful. Peaches apparently can be an indicator for wine grapes as they prefer similar climates.

I've been trying to identify varieties that will grow on this particular bench of land by comparing weather station data from here to various wine growing regions, mostly in France and Austria. The critical piece to look for is the average temperatures during the time the fruit is ripening and gathering sugars, usually from Aug-Oct. So far we've planted Gewurztraminer, Pinot Blanc, Pinot Gris, Zweigelt, Pinot Noir, and Sauvignon Blanc all of which we are fairly certain will do well here. We'll probably add a few more next year, likely Riesling and another red or two. These are obviously popular varieties not commonly grown here so if they are successful it could change the nature of the wine produced in this area which is my goal. And if the hotter / drier trend continues then who knows, maybe someday we'll be able to grow varieties that they have down in the Okanangan like Merlot and Cabernet.

I would say it definitely could be a good investment but finding the right parcel of land is obviously the most critical element.

[station]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

That's going to be just amazing. Are you at a higher elevation than the average Kelowna vineyard? Yours might be a really cool and interesting twist on old world grapes. Are you going to make wine too or just sell grapes?

Here's the biz on appassimento wine making at Foreign Affair...

We're only about 80 metres higher but just over 100 km's north of Kelowna. We get virtually the same growing season but a less overall heat and more precipitation. That twist is exactly what we're aiming for! Right now we're going to build up the vineyard over a number of years and hopefully have some of the local wineries as customers. Many of them have to buy the more popular grapes from other regions so it would be nice to be able to grow them here as well. This is a side / future retirement hobby-business so I'm not looking to make a huge profit from it. That said, there is definitely a much higher margin producing wine as opposed to just growing the grapes. I'm thinking we might just start with a boutique label through our friends' winery and then if we get the bug for it perhaps in the future we'll develop our own winery as well.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by station

Thanks!

You raise a good point. I have considered that issue but I'm not quite sure how to approach it given the complexities of climate and weather, especially on the micro-climate level. Anecdotally, my family has been in this area for around 100 years and we've definitely seen a trend here toward a warmer and drier climate. Typically the fruit that does well here are apples, pears, and cherries but we have a few dozen peach trees on this land that were planted 30~ years ago and have been quite successful. Peaches apparently can be an indicator for wine grapes as they prefer similar climates.

I've been trying to identify varieties that will grow on this particular bench of land by comparing weather station data from here to various wine growing regions, mostly in France and Austria. The critical piece to look for is the average temperatures during the time the fruit is ripening and gathering sugars, usually from Aug-Oct. So far we've planted Gewurztraminer, Pinot Blanc, Pinot Gris, Zweigelt, Pinot Noir, and Sauvignon Blanc all of which we are fairly certain will do well here. We'll probably add a few more next year, likely Riesling and another red or two. These are obviously popular varieties not commonly grown here so if they are successful it could change the nature of the wine produced in this area which is my goal. And if the hotter / drier trend continues then who knows, maybe someday we'll be able to grow varieties that they have down in the Okanangan like Merlot and Cabernet.

I would say it definitely could be a good investment but finding the right parcel of land is obviously the most critical element.

Take a look at what they grow in southern Luxembourg. We just drove through there and they have a fairly large wine region that should be similar climate. I had a really good white there, but can't remember what it was!

[JohnnyB]

Why is it wine and beer threads get relegated to food and entertainment while the scotch thread has always been able to stick in the main OT forum? :/