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Old 09-17-2020, 09:30 PM   #141
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Old 09-17-2020, 09:31 PM   #142
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The fact? What fact are you referring to?
During the last stretch of that trade, Fan960 talked about Stone saying that we was gonna sign where ever the trade would take him. He wasn't fussy about where he was going to go, he just wanted a long term deal for stability.
LOL, he never said any such thing. Who in their right mind would Just promise to sign with whoever traded for him without even seeing an offer?
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Old 09-17-2020, 09:34 PM   #143
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That's what the guys on fan were talking about. Of course he wasn't promising to sign any deal. Duh!!! He just said his priority was a long term deal, not a destination.

And really, if he was set on Vegas and definitely not Calgary, would Calgary be pursuing that deal till last minute? Makes no sense.

Lebrun had a feeling.... Ok. Lol.

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Old 09-17-2020, 09:36 PM   #144
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I can’t believe how many pages this thread has gone. A couple of average players(Stall is over the hill) and two boring teams.
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Old 09-17-2020, 09:43 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Red View Post
That's what the guys on fan were talking about. Of course he wasn't promising to sign any deal. Duh!!! He just said his priority was a long term deal, not a destination.

And really, if he was set on Vegas and definitely not Calgary, would Calgary be pursuing that deal till last minute? Makes no sense.

Lebrun had a feeling.... Ok. Lol.
Well if you're going to challenge Lebrun's reputation, you probably don't want to be referencing the guys on the fan!

Also, the Flames pursued him, hoping to convince him. If he were interested in signing here, they probably get it done. Because they sounded like the leaders, right up to the last minute.
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Old 09-17-2020, 09:46 PM   #146
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Well if you're going to challenge Lebrun's reputation, you probably don't want to be referencing the guys on the fan!
That is true. Although that may have been a guest.
In the end we don't know. All speculation. But logic would suggest that you don't go all out till the last minute negotiating for a player that clearly doesn't want to be on your team.
You hang that phone up 2 minutes in, no? Unless he was unsure. In that scenario the Flames didn't do a good job selling him on the team and the city. Which brings me back to Treliving not being a good ambassador for the Flames.
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Old 09-17-2020, 09:48 PM   #147
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That is true. Although that may have been a guest.
In the end we don't know. All speculation. But logic would suggest that you don't go all out till the last minute negotiating for a player that clearly doesn't want to be on your team.
You hand that phone up 2 minutes in, no?
Negotiation. You keep trying. If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen.

But you have to fricking try.
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Old 09-17-2020, 09:49 PM   #148
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Treliving is good a trying.
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Old 09-17-2020, 09:53 PM   #149
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Treliving is good a trying.
Would you prefer he didn't try?

Would you prefer he threw more money (and picks and players) around?

Personally, I like having a GM that is always trying but isn't willing to overpay. Not saying he's perfect. And I like seeing trades as much as any other fan. But the GM can't be a trade-slut, he has to run a tight ship.

Feaster is an example of what happens if you're willing to pay whatever to get a trade done - you always lose the trade.
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Old 09-17-2020, 09:57 PM   #150
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Quote:
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That is true. Although that may have been a guest.
In the end we don't know. All speculation. But logic would suggest that you don't go all out till the last minute negotiating for a player that clearly doesn't want to be on your team.
Correct. Which is why Stone was never traded to Calgary. As soon as they knew they couldn't re-sign him, the deal was off.
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You hang that phone up 2 minutes in, no? Unless he was unsure. In that scenario the Flames didn't do a good job selling him on the team and the city. Which brings me back to Treliving not being a good ambassador for the Flames.

Well, there is only so much anyone can do, and within a very limited time. I am sure Treliving was doing a full-court press to convince Stone to sign long term, and I suspect the deal was in limbo for as long as it was precisely for this reason. But, there was a DEADLINE. This is not about Treliving failing at his job. It's about having limited time and resources to make the deal work. It may come as a shock to you, but no NHL GM can merely will the players he wants to sign the deals he is offering.



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Old 09-17-2020, 10:05 PM   #151
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Stone is only one example. The trend is clear, Treliving comes ose but fails to close the deal.
Do I want more trades? No. I want a team that can compete and have good players. Cheaping out is just as bad as overpaying. Both lead to no success for most. But sometimes you have to pay up. Make that up by not overpaying ur 4 th liners like Ryan. Or Michael Stone, Czarnik etc.
Seems like the very successful teams have no problems paying up. We laugh at them for their cap problems , they win games.
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Old 09-17-2020, 10:19 PM   #152
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...Cheaping out is just as bad as overpaying. Both lead to no success for most. But sometimes you have to pay up. Make that up by not overpaying ur 4 th liners like Ryan. Or Michael Stone, Czarnik etc.
Seriously? Yes, Stone was overpaid, but Czarnik makes less than $2.0 m, which is well within the range of a "fourth liner." Moreover, just because Ryan centred the fourth line in the playoffs it does not mean that he is also a fourth liner. He was a 40-point player when he signed that deal, and he reproduced those numbers in the first year of his contract. Even though his scoring dipped slightly last season, he was still on-track to score +35 points, which is great middle-six production, WHICH IS ALSO RIGHT IN LINE WITH HOW HE IS PAID.

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Seems like the very successful teams have no problems paying up. We laugh at them for their cap problems , they win games.

Very unsuccessful teams also overspend on players with abandon. "Paying up" is not what makes teams great. Good drafting, asset management, and a prodigious dose of good fortune is what does it.

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Old 09-17-2020, 11:39 PM   #153
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Right, because contenders rarely have many players older than 26
Most contenders are primarily composed of players that they drafted themselves, or acquired otherwise before they turned 26.

Significant team changing UFAs in the cap era to win a cup:
Niedermayer
Hossa
Chara
(I think there may have been one other)

I've never gone through trades, but I'd wager that the vast majority of 'core players' on cup winning teams were acquired as RFAs. Real teams put a cherry on top of their sundae with a trade or UFA. These are often more specialist players who shore up an area of need on an otherwise well-rounded team: Kessel, Gaborik, Oshie, B Campbell, etc. Calgary has never had particular trouble acquiring these kinds of players. ROR would be a pretty big exception, maybe there are a few others like him (but not off the top of my head).

It's pretty rare to alter your core via trade for an older player and go on to sustained success. age 26 Thornton to SJ in cap era year 1 (not sure if he had a looming NTC?)...CGY had every opportunity to be in on that. Maybe there are a few examples of actual UFA age players being traded, but none come to my mind at the moment...


What are some foundational opportunities that Calgary missed out on specifically because of NTC or UFA going elsewhere? Scott Niedermayer? Pretty hard to say he made the wrong choice...
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Old 09-17-2020, 11:42 PM   #154
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I’m not an Oilers fan but the cold hard reality is that in the last 13 years the Flames have the same amount of playoff round wins as the Oilers. It is THAT bad and honestly unreal.

Right, and that is the 'frustrating part' that I feel right now.


However, it isn't just the playoff success that I was referring to in my post. People are complaining that the owners are happy being mediocre, that they are cheap, that this is a poorly run franchise. While they haven't had more playoff success than the Oilers have, my point is that this team isn't that perennial embarrassment of an organization, or an organization that is constantly dealing with off-ice issues, operating income issues, etc.



I am completely frustrated as a fan for the lack of playoff success overall since '89, but this is not as terribly run a team as people are wanting to point out. They can be better - the SHOULD be better than this - but at least the focus of the issues is directed at the lack of success in the playoffs and nowhere else for the most part, unlike a number of teams that I am very glad I didn't grow up cheering for.
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Old 09-18-2020, 12:59 AM   #155
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The flames were never in a position to negotiate a contract with stone because they lacked sufficient cap space to sign the contract.

Vegas gave themselves flexibility by letting Neal walk away and the Flames crippled their ability to make a major deadline acquisition by signing him.

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So it's a two pronged complication.

As I understand it, they would not have had the tagging room because of the pending bonuses potentially owed. I believe bonuses count until such a point as they are no longer achievable but getbak will probably correct me here.

The other part here is risk: if you have to move Neal and Mike stone to afford to re-sign Mark Stone, you're taking on SUBSTANTIAL risk that you will be able to move those contracts prior to July 1st when tkachuk can be offersheeted.

Neal's contract removed any flexibility the flames had. Trading for stone without subtracting Neal would've been a disaster, which is why Neal to Ottawa was a major component of the deal. Even now, Neal's contract is a huge problem for the flames to navigate around. They would be able to keep Frolik AND Brodie if Neal wasn't on the roster.

A big reason those contributing valuable roster players have to move is because of a non contributing no value (non)roster player.

If you trade for stone without subtracting Neal you can't sign him to an extension right away which increases the risk he reaches this courting period without a deal which basically guarantees he's a goner.

That was the 'not moving valimaki for a rental' argument. The price for making stone not a rental was 2x1sts, valimaki and Andersson to absorb Neal.

Based on what the leafs paid to drop a single year of Marleau, 2x1sts + Andersson may have been a relatively cheap price for Neal.
Vegas tried to acquire stone in the summer preceding the deadline but Ottawa would not do the deal, so vegas kept their cap situation fluid in anticipation of acquiring him through the year if he became available.

Ultimately the flames could not do any deal for Mark Stone to guarantee he wouldn't be a rental without offloading Neal. Am extension with Calgary was simply not possible unless the flames could move out a major salary at the same time as acquiring stone and Ottawa would not accept salary in return for any of their deadline deals.

Ultimately I believe the flames were willing to part with multiple 1sts and one of Valimaki or Andersson but Ottawa simply would not do it if it meant adding Neal which is why Maloney said they went to bed thinking they had something major done.

From there discussions ceased and the Flames looked at a cost controlled asset in Zucker as a plan B. This removed the need and risk involved in with dealing with tagging room as Minnesota was willing to take Frolik in the deal, but again something on Calgary's end also scuttled that deal.

My speculation being that there was a breakdown in communication between levels of management within the flames organization that had been previously reported in other potential acquisition scenarios during Trelivings tenure leading him to be "white hot" about this problem occuring yet again.

Considering that information comes from a reporter with deep access in the Minnesota organization in an article burying the general manager, I'm inclined to accept that information as more or less true.

It's admirable that the flames owners are always willing to spend to the cap but its also not always prudent management.
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Old 09-18-2020, 01:20 PM   #156
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Stone is only one example. The trend is clear, Treliving comes ose but fails to close the deal.
Do I want more trades? No. I want a team that can compete and have good players. Cheaping out is just as bad as overpaying. Both lead to no success for most. But sometimes you have to pay up. Make that up by not overpaying ur 4 th liners like Ryan. Or Michael Stone, Czarnik etc.
Seems like the very successful teams have no problems paying up. We laugh at them for their cap problems , they win games.
No it isn't. Overpaying hurts your cap situation. Being stingy doesn't.
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