High-Profile Sexual Abuse Epidemic

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Matata

This is just lame thought policing. We're talking about chatter on an internet message board that could never affect anyone involved, the only thing accomplished by tip toeing through the tulips is stunted conversation.

Titan and Ernie already touched on it, but that bold part is way off base.

We are having this discussion on a board with a pretty diverse membership, many of whom are women, some of whom have undoubtedly been through some form of harassment or worse. Making sure we are careful in how we discuss this is part of making sure women feel comfortable coming forward.

Saying this is a place where the chatter could never affect someone involved ignores the fact that this is a pretty wide spread problem that doesn't just affect Hollywood, famous people, or women who work for the NFL, and it means you are okay with this being a place that isn't welcoming or encouraging of women to speak up.

If we are picking and choosing where it's okay to build the kind of place where women are comfortable coming forward, then we are just paying lip service to the idea, or worse yet, just trying to do it when we think women are listening.

[Sainters7]

Originally Posted by bob-loblaw

That’s some ‘HR’ department at the NFL Network if they don’t know a female is made to work in the men’s washroom. Every executive there should be canned.

Yeah that literally blows my mind. How does that happen??? Like I don't even get it

[troutman]

Morgan Spurlock says he's "part of the problem" in sexual misconduct confession

https://www.avclub.com/morgan-spurlo...ocialMarketing

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by troutman

Morgan Spurlock says he's "part of the problem" in sexual misconduct confession

https://www.avclub.com/morgan-spurlo...ocialMarketing

we'll see a lot more of these.
High profile people knowing they may be next in getting outed, so they're trying to get in front of the story. for some, maybe also being able to put their spin on it to sway public opinion.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

we'll see a lot more of these.
High profile people knowing they may be next in getting outed, so they're trying to get in front of the story. for some, maybe also being able to put their spin on it to sway public opinion.

this, if you come forward first you can at least control the narrative and the spin.

I'm betting that every actor, celebrity whatever and politician has had serious sit down meetings over the past while to explore the skeletons in their closet, and the ongoing strategy is going to be

"Come out before the allegations", "Go to rehab", meanwhile teams of lawyers will be reaching out to the victims with big checks and non disclosure agreements.

[troutman]

Kentucky Lawmaker Dies In Apparent Suicide Amid Accusations Of Sexual Assault

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...m_content=2043

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

this, if you come forward first you can at least control the narrative and the spin.

I'm betting that every actor, celebrity whatever and politician has had serious sit down meetings over the past while to explore the skeletons in their closet, and the ongoing strategy is going to be

"Come out before the allegations", "Go to rehab", meanwhile teams of lawyers will be reaching out to the victims with big checks and non disclosure agreements.

I hope this isn't the trend. I don't know if this helps anybody when this route is followed. Buying victims' silence sends a bad message and will inevitably create future problems.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I hope this isn't the trend. I don't know if this helps anybody when this route is followed. Buying victims' silence sends a bad message and will inevitably create future problems.

That's going to be the strategy though.

It all comes down to numbers. Lets say that your a scumbag, and over your career in Hollywood you've abused or casting couched 50 woman with the promise of a career.

So you split it up. which ones are famous, which ones gave up and went home to Pudumski, Indiana.

So your slick lawyers show up at the restaurants or whatever that they're working with and have a check for $100,000 in exchange for your silence.

So you knock that number way down and your dealing with maybe half of those victims, and you offer them more and shave off more.

so lets say that you knock it down to 20, and then negotiate it down to 10. You're a hollywood biggidy big with lets say 50 or 100 million in the bank and you spend half of that.

So lets say you negotiate it down to 5. Before they can come forward you jump on and say that your sick and you need help and your going away to get help. Even with the come forwards of 5, you're statement and you going to rehab and apologizing publically and doing something to make it right, lets you control the narrative, and you go radio dark for a year and then come back and everyone has forgotten about it.

You also still have a bunch of money in the bank.

You can bet that this is going to be the strategy going forward. There's too much sympathy for the villains for you to stand there and call them liars and fight them and survive the release of details. So you play the contrition card, while working to reduce the number of complaints through quick and quiet settlements.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by ernie

These are the basic choices a woman has:

1) stay in the job so they can continue to pay rent, put food on the table, build a resume to get something better etc

2) find another job in their chosen profession and HOPE the same stuff doesn’t happen. The last couple of months should suggest that hope is just that...hope.

3) exit the job pool

4) report the perpetrator said and risk getting their name drawn through the mud, black balled in the industry etc. It’s worth remembering that many people live and work in small communities that it’s easy to get branded as a “trouble maker” making it difficult to find work again.

In the end we’d of course want 4 to be chosen and without any personal consequence to the victim. There is, quite frankly, no guarantee of that in today’s world.

So what SHOULD a woman do? Whatever she damn well sees fit to do.

What we need to do is create a society where option 4 is easy for people to chose. You get to 4 by supporting the women that do come forward. Creating an environment where others feel emboldened to do so. Creating an environment where 4 isn’t scary because the victim knows there will not be reprisals personally or professionally. YOU DO NOT PRESSURE VICTIMS TO COME FORWARD.

I don't know about your personal experiences Ernie, but I'd like to preface this by saying that I do work as an HR Manager and have dealt with many harassment complaints in the past.

This type of stuff really bothers me. I know I work for a fairly large organization, with an extensive harassment and retaliation policy and anyone who reports harassment is taken seriously. We try our very best to treat them seriously and respectfully throughout the process, but understand it isn't an easy process.

Employers do have a burden of proof that they need for these investigations. Individuals who bring allegations forward are going to be asked for evidence, details, dates and times. Their story is going to be evaluated for inconsistencies, because like it or not, not every person is going to be "believed", nor should they be. Both accusers and accused are employees of the company, so the investigation should be handled in an unbiased manner and it should be fact based.

I have seen people who are bitter at HR because we didn't outright believe them without evidence. I'm sorry to say, that isn't how it works. You aren't always going to get the answer you want to hear. There aren't cameras covering every nook and cranny of the office and those 0.25 frames per second don't always tell you everything you need to know.

Victims should come forward, but they also should know that not everything is going to be sunshine and roses. I have sympathy for that, but you can't change the work environment if management or HR doesn't know about it.

[Coach]

Caramon, is there some mechanism, or some sort of flagging that happens to more closely monitor someone’s activities in the workplace (emails, internet searches, recorded calls, etc...) after they’ve been accused? Maybe for a period of time?

I know when working for a large organization all that stuff was being done anyways but rarely would I hear of anyone actually getting flagged for inappropriate web searches or comments etc...

What does the investigation entail? Do you purely look at what happened between the two people, or do you also seek to see if there may be a pattern not with just one accuser but with multiple people? Like they may not have evidence, but if they come to you and I.t causes a closer eye to watch them maybe there will be other things that are consistent with what they’re saying? Just curious about the extent of the process after a complaint.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

I don't know about your personal experiences Ernie, but I'd like to preface this by saying that I do work as an HR Manager and have dealt with many harassment complaints in the past.

This type of stuff really bothers me. I know I work for a fairly large organization, with an extensive harassment and retaliation policy and anyone who reports harassment is taken seriously. We try our very best to treat them seriously and respectfully throughout the process, but understand it isn't an easy process.

Employers do have a burden of proof that they need for these investigations. Individuals who bring allegations forward are going to be asked for evidence, details, dates and times. Their story is going to be evaluated for inconsistencies, because like it or not, not every person is going to be "believed", nor should they be. Both accusers and accused are employees of the company, so the investigation should be handled in an unbiased manner and it should be fact based.

I have seen people who are bitter at HR because we didn't outright believe them without evidence. I'm sorry to say, that isn't how it works. You aren't always going to get the answer you want to hear. There aren't cameras covering every nook and cranny of the office and those 0.25 frames per second don't always tell you everything you need to know.

Victims should come forward, but they also should know that not everything is going to be sunshine and roses. I have sympathy for that, but you can't change the work environment if management or HR doesn't know about it.

I don't disagree with anything you said to be honest. I understand all of that and thankfully I'm part of a company that also has very robust policies and takes things seriously.

I've also worked in companies that didn't.

Your last paragraph is exactly the point. HR can't do something unless they know. The solution isn't saying to the victim "well what do you want me to have done you didn't tell me". The solution is in putting those policies and what not in place that people feel they have the support they need to make the disclosure. There isn't a victim in the world that thinks it's ever going to be easy and they understand it won't be sunshine and roses. Hence the need for that safe environment free of blame and full of support. You want option 4 to be taken free of reprisals.

I also thin most victims know that when it comes to employment issues there is a burden of proof that must be shown. However, at least in the company I work for, changes would immediately be made to scheduling regardless of proof. That is a form of support. It's honestly not ideal but it helps.

But in regards to my post that is in many, many cases the choices the victim sees they have. The NFL story illustrates that clearly. HR was even told and nothing happened. This is what is has been like for decades and continues to be except in the most progressive companies.

Your company and my company are likely in the minority.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I know when working for a large organization all that stuff was being done anyways but rarely would I hear of anyone actually getting flagged for inappropriate web searches or comments etc...

At least in my organization, there isn't much for pro-active monitoring of activities that employees aren't aware of, especially for EEs who have not been accused of anything with a few exceptions. It is almost entirely done on an as reported basis.

I did send an email about a few months ago with ten N-words in it (it was an investigation summary) and I didn't hear anything about it.

One exception to that was that we would monitor our company's social media page and if an employee made a disparaging comment, it would be flagged and followed up on. Another was that IT would occasionally run reports that showed % bandwidth usage. So if someone was on you tube or certain sites, you might flag on that report. It really depends on the IT department. I'll also mention that I wasn't even made aware of the bandwidth report, that was VP level stuff, so there probably is more reporting that I am not privy to that is on a need to know basis

However, companies can pretty liberally violate your privacy, especially when it comes to conducting personal business on company property or with company resources.

If you're secretly asking "will I get caught for browsing CP (Calpuck) at work?", the answer is probably no. Especially if you limit it to an hour a day or something like that, you could always play it off as you were taking a break w/o leaving your desk. It's always safer to use your personal phone though.

Caramon, is there some mechanism, or some sort of flagging that happens to more closely monitor someone’s activities in the workplace (emails, internet searches, recorded calls, etc...) after they’ve been accused? Maybe for a period of time?

It depends. Specifically when talking about harassment, probably not too much monitoring before you are spoken to, unless we felt there was a specific piece of technology we could leverage or some detail we knew about (i.e. person x masturbates at his desk at 3PM each day) or if there was a specific date/time of an incident that we were made aware of, or if there was a vulgar email we needed. You can't really monitor someone easily to catch workplace harassment in most cases.

However, if it was a security related issue i.e. theft, then absolutely we monitor you prior to speaking with you. We can and will hire PIs, access video, billing information, computer logs - anything and everything. If we catch you in the act, that is perfect.

Most incidents come to us via in-person or an ethics line.

What does the investigation entail? Do you purely look at what happened between the two people, or do you also seek to see if there may be a pattern not with just one accuser but with multiple people? Like they may not have evidence, but if they come to you and I.t causes a closer eye to watch them maybe there will be other things that are consistent with what they’re saying? Just curious about the extent of the process after a complaint.

So, part of the reason why there won't be much monitoring of an employee when a complaint comes in, is because you typically want to act with expediency on it. You want put an end to the harassment as quickly as possible. The longer an employer knows about harassment and does nothing about it, they can be liable.

Investigations can be pretty dynamic, it largely depends on what is presented to us and how we go from there. I deal mostly with non-office environment workers (but some office as well). Most of the types of complaints that come in tend to be single incident types.

Investigations can poison the workplace.

We're generally very careful about not expanding outside the boundaries of the initial complaint, unless they is some relevant reason to interview them i.e. someone told them something, they witnessed something specific, observed behavior, etc. If a witness was named, they need to be interviewed. You do need to be very careful that you aren't on a witch hunt and interviewing every random employee under the sun, unless there is really good reason to. If a witness or the accuser gives you the name of someone else this happened to, we will look into it, but won't go hunting for no reason.

Typically I try to gather all the evidence before I talk to the accused. Whether there is video of an incident, talking to the accuser, talking to witnesses, etc.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by ernie

But in regards to my post that is in many, many cases the choices the victim sees they have. The NFL story illustrates that clearly. HR was even told and nothing happened. This is what is has been like for decades and continues to be except in the most progressive companies.

Your company and my company are likely in the minority.

I disagree with this, especially in Canada. Smaller employers can be a crap shoot, but most large employers will have a solid program in place now.

There are so many repercussions for employers that don't follow through on harassment. People are more willing than ever to go to the media now and have your company name dragged through the mud.

Human Rights Tribunals can levy very heavy penalties against employers and seek damages for employees. These are a complete crock, are so stacked in favor the employee it isn't even amusing. If you have even a shred of evidence and a few 'witnesses' come forward, you can hold your ex-employer over a barrel for damages.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Which is why it's so nonsensical that a bunch of people have recently been trumpeting a finding of the tribunal in the Alberta Politics thread as if it's some damning indictment of the losing party. Those things aren't courts.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I hope this isn't the trend. I don't know if this helps anybody when this route is followed. Buying victims' silence sends a bad message and will inevitably create future problems.

Aside from it actually helping victims whose careers may have been harmed as a result of the harassment.

I agree with you that it doesn't help society however it's the only compensation a victim will ever recieve.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Which is why it's so nonsensical that a bunch of people have recently been trumpeting a finding of the tribunal in the Alberta Politics thread as if it's some damning indictment of the losing party. Those things aren't courts.

While I agree with you here if you read the case I think you will find that she was clearly a victim of harassment. And the judgement seemed vary reasonable and not the kangaroo court the more public cases are (Like the Apega one).

Nixon just chose not to defend himself and didn't seem like he had much for options.

[Coach]

Thanks Caramon. No no problem with getting caught on CP at work, and I don’t work for a company with that type of work anymore anyways. I was curious that I was never spoken to as I would end up on sites (usually linked from discussions here) that probably should have been getting me flagged (marijuana threads and links, links from the “don’t want to live on this planet anymore thread”, etc.

What I can gather tho from your responses is that the company seems far more concerned with its own image, liability or costs than it is with employee-employee misconduct. Monitoring social media accounts for embarrassing comments, bandwidth use (wasting time), theft (most of which I assume is petty theft, office supplies or cash from a til). Seems weird that there would be such extensive campaigns for that stuff but if an accuser has no evidence on hand of harassment that’s just it?

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by MattyC

What I can gather tho from your responses is that the company seems far more concerned with its own image, liability or costs than it is with employee-employee misconduct. Monitoring social media accounts for embarrassing comments, bandwidth use (wasting time), theft (most of which I assume is petty theft, office supplies or cash from a til).

I guess my responses sounded a bit callous and matter of fact, but no company is going to pay me out of the goodness of their heart. If employee issues didn't cost the company money through things like liability, grievances, lost productivity, retention, etc, my job probably wouldn't exist.

HR does exist in part to protect the company from liability. I wouldn't say that it is more important than dealing with employee to employee misconduct though.

Seems weird that there would be such extensive campaigns for that stuff but if an accuser has no evidence on hand of harassment that’s just it?

Don't get me wrong, it is investigated, but it is inherently more difficult to investigate than something like theft. Most money is under a single camera, audited daily and tracked - and the vast majority of thieves keep stealing. While it might seem like we may devote more time to finding this, it is pretty straight forward to investigate.

If I receive an accusation such as person x said something rude to me or sexually suggestive, no cameras, no witnesses, no other accusations, no patterned behavior, aside from talking to the person and trying to assess the integrity of the accused, there isn't a ton you can do. Harassment definitely relies on human intel much more than theft does. If I start interviewing other EEs at random, asking if x sexually harassed you, I begin to poison the workplace against that person and it could be viewed as constructive dismissal.

[CaramonLS]

I can't edit my post for some reason, but I'll add one caveat Matty. Obviously there is proportionality involved, so if there was an accusation that was very severe, it would have to be dealt with differently and you would probably be interviewing everyone.

[Red Ice Player]

Originally Posted by troutman

Kentucky Lawmaker Dies In Apparent Suicide Amid Accusations Of Sexual Assault

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...m_content=2043

Wow. I don't like to speak ill of the dead, and I feel bad for his family, but a short read of this guy's bio reveals absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever. I mean none. He was a horribly corrupt racist fraud POS, as well as a rapist. I would not have wished for his death, but only because he deserved to spend the rest of his pathetic life behind bars. Now his wife is going after the victim he was accused of assaulting. His victim's story is very credible and backed up with a ton of evidence. I hope she can someday get away from this horrific ordeal and have a semblance of a normal life.