12-04-2017, 01:55 PM
|
#681
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger
That's great and all but none of that answers any of my questions. I'm aware this is for the WC. I'm aware that they use the coefficient for seeding. I'm aware that Euro is different and I'm aware that Italy struggled (sort of, as has been mentioned they were still much better in the round robin than teams who actually made it).
But none of that has anything to do with why none of the confederations use the same qualifying format and why UEFA uses theirs, why UEFA nations haven't changed it so it favours the big teams.
|
They do favor the big teams. The big teams are all seeded in the first pot when they do the draw for qualifying.
Italy doesn't get to be a "big team" every year based on the fact they are former world champions. Its why we play the games.
|
|
|
12-04-2017, 01:56 PM
|
#682
|
That Crazy Guy at the Bus Stop
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Springfield Penitentiary
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames
Why was it a joke they were in the same group as Spain? Does Italy just get to ride its reputation on its way to every major tourney?
They go through qualifying process, same as every other country. They have no one to blame but themselves for not qualifying.
|
The answer to your question is clear as day in the post your quoted...Did you stop reading after the first sentence?
|
|
|
12-04-2017, 01:58 PM
|
#683
|
That Crazy Guy at the Bus Stop
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Springfield Penitentiary
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames
They do favor the big teams. The big teams are all seeded in the first pot when they do the draw for qualifying.
Italy doesn't get to be a "big team" every year based on the fact they are former world champions. Its why we play the games.
|
I don't think you understand how WC qualifying works for UEFA.
They absolutely don't just put the big teams in the first pot.
|
|
|
12-04-2017, 02:54 PM
|
#684
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Calgary, AB
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames
They do favor the big teams. The big teams are all seeded in the first pot when they do the draw for qualifying.
Italy doesn't get to be a "big team" every year based on the fact they are former world champions. Its why we play the games.
|
It's because the FIFA rankings are broken.
You had a Wales and Romania team both of whom didn't even qualify for the 2014 World Cup, and then Romania didn't even win a game at Euro 2016, who were seeded in the top pot since they got fat on wins against teams that were poor competition but in UEFA.
Then you had Italy who was punished for a poor WC 2014 since they 2 losses in that tournament hurt their coefficient. (Although England was still seeded Even though Italy beat them at the WC and they finished below them in our group)
So teams that didn't qualify but feasted on weak competition in friendlies were given a better seed.
Here is a good article from it at the time. http://uk.businessinsider.com/new-ju...ankings-2015-7
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to SuperMatt18 For This Useful Post:
|
|
12-04-2017, 04:29 PM
|
#685
|
NOT breaking news
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Calgary
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger
That's great and all but none of that answers any of my questions. I'm aware this is for the WC. I'm aware that they use the coefficient for seeding. I'm aware that Euro is different and I'm aware that Italy struggled (sort of, as has been mentioned they were still much better in the round robin than teams who actually made it).
But none of that has anything to do with why none of the confederations use the same qualifying format and why UEFA uses theirs, why UEFA nations haven't changed it so it favours the big teams.
|
Do you mean why UEFA doesnt have multiple rounds? Weed out bottom 25 teams in Round 1? I think it's financial. They little teams like a big team coming into town every cycle.
__________________
Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire
|
|
|
12-07-2017, 02:55 PM
|
#686
|
First Line Centre
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: CALGARY!
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames
Why is Portugal/Spain an intriguing matchup? Both teams will rightfully believe they will progress the group so they will lollygag during their match to save players for the knockout stage. You should be looking forward to a team like Peru or Denmark upsetting France and throwing the group wide open. Or if Korea manages 0-0 vs Germany.
Also, earth to Familia: Italy, Holland and USA suck. Their teams are in shambles and them being present in the WC wouldn't add any "intrigue" to anything. Iceland is in fantastic form and will produce better football playing balls to the wall than a listless Italy would have if they limped into the WC.
|
I won't argue that Italy is struggling and probably would have flopped in the WC. The fact remains, as Super Matty pointed out, the qualifications are bogus and have serious flaws in them. Italy should be there ahead of many other countries, their record in qualifying proves that (only one loss, minus the playoff vs. Sweden, and we still don't get in). No matter how you spin it, having Italy, Holland, USA, and Chile not in the world cup will hurt ratings and sponsorships.
Love them or hate them, teams like Italy, England, USA, Germany, Brazil, etc. are the teams that people pay and want to see. Fact is, I see 100's of Italy and Brazil jerseys all over the place wherever I go, with a great deal of those people clearly not of Italian or Brazilian decent. I have never come across an Algerian jersey unless the person is of Algerian decent. There is no denying that the traditional football superpowers transcend borders and nationalities and that they fuel the tournament in terms of interest. A casual soccer fan might tune into a Germany match. No one is going to waste their time watching Egypt vs. Senegal unless they have ties to those countries. Just look at hockey at the Olympics. No one watches or buys tickets to a Slovakia vs. Belarus game...everyone wants Canada and Russia.
In my opinion the World Cup is kind of a joke. The world's best teams are not always there. Due to the fact that every continent has to have a certain amount of representation (while better countries from other continents have to miss), proves that the World Cup is bogus. I'll take the Euro Cup any day of the week as the competition and skill is miles ahead of the World Cup.
Maybe I am making excuses for Italy (still bitter they won't be there), but hoping that my point has a bit of merit. Ask yourselves, how stoked are you to watch Senegal vs. Japan? I sure as hell won't be tuning in. No matter how ####ty Italy might be playing, I can guarantee you that they would create interest in some fashion. Whether that be due to an upset loss, a convincing win, or some on/off field shenanigans, people love to hate them. Oh well, at least I can be stress free all June. I guess I'll cheer for Denmark for some unknown reason...
__________________
Stanley Cup - 1989
Clarence Campbell Trophy - 1986, 1989, 2004
Presidents Trophy - 1988, 1989
William Jennings Trophy - 2006
|
|
|
12-07-2017, 05:06 PM
|
#687
|
Franchise Player
|
hundreds of millions of people are going to watch Egypt vs Senegal
I'm excited to watch Senegal vs. Japan too
world cup starts at the qualification, Italy got knocked out
|
|
|
12-08-2017, 08:50 AM
|
#688
|
NOT breaking news
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Calgary
|
Group H is really interesting. Poland, Colombia, Senegal, Japan.
You could not have 4 more different teams. The clash of styles will be fun to watch.
__________________
Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire
|
|
|
12-08-2017, 09:36 AM
|
#689
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Income Tax Central
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlySports
Group H is really interesting. Poland, Colombia, Senegal, Japan.
You could not have 4 more different teams. The clash of styles will be fun to watch.
|
You expect Poland and Colombia to get through but anything could happen, none of those teams is head and shoulders above the others, if Japan or Senegal play a tight game and get some help from their stars they could surprise.
__________________
The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!
This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a Fire Exit. - Mitch Hedberg
|
|
|
12-08-2017, 09:20 PM
|
#690
|
Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: North America
|
Canadian 17-year-old soccer star Alphonso Davies has received an invite from the Manchester United Football Club of the English Premier League to train with the club in January, reports CTV Edmonton sports reporter Adam Cook.
http://www.tsn.ca/report-canada-s-da...man-u-1.938999
|
|
|
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Yoho For This Useful Post:
|
|
12-08-2017, 10:17 PM
|
#691
|
I believe in the Jays.
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoho
Canadian 17-year-old soccer star Alphonso Davies has received an invite from the Manchester United Football Club of the English Premier League to train with the club in January, reports CTV Edmonton sports reporter Adam Cook.
http://www.tsn.ca/report-canada-s-da...man-u-1.938999
|
That's great! Hopefully he makes the most out of this chance.
|
|
|
12-09-2017, 12:35 AM
|
#692
|
First Line Centre
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Canterbury, NZ
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger
I never seem to hear about anyone complaining that the CONCACAF system is dumb and favors minnows.
|
The CONCACAF system is dumb but not because it favours minnows (it doesn't). It's dumb because the final stage is easier to advance from than the semi-final stage, with 4/6 teams advancing from the final group as opposed to the 3 groups of 4 with top 2 advancing. A lot of good teams miss out on the final round while occasionally a weird draw results in a weak team making the final round.
Look at 2006 as an example. Mexico were drawn into a cupcake semifinal group with T&T, St Vincent and the Grenadines, and St Kitts and Nevis. Mexico and T&T waltz into the final group pretty much unopposed while Honduras, Canada, Jamaica and El Salvador all get eliminated, then T&T qualify for the playoff and ultimately the World Cup with a losing record in the final round!
Flukey draws somewhat aside, the real problem with so many teams being eliminated before the final round is that these teams miss out on the opportunity for FIFA ranking points by playing significantly fewer qualifiers, meaning they are seeded lower for the next qualifying draw and are more likely to get shafted as a result, while the teams that make the final round play an additional 10 qualifying games. A team eliminated in the semifinal stage could play as few as 6 WCQ games in a 4 year cycle. World Cup qualifiers count for 2.5 times the FIFA points as friendlies do, so this keeps the top teams at the top and the lower teams out of the picture.
That the USA still failed to qualify despite the system being so heavily rigged in their favour is hilarious. And don't even get me started on the Gold Cup.
|
|
|
12-09-2017, 09:44 AM
|
#693
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Income Tax Central
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoho
Canadian 17-year-old soccer star Alphonso Davies has received an invite from the Manchester United Football Club of the English Premier League to train with the club in January, reports CTV Edmonton sports reporter Adam Cook.
http://www.tsn.ca/report-canada-s-da...man-u-1.938999
|
Thats a shame.
__________________
The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!
This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a Fire Exit. - Mitch Hedberg
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Locke For This Useful Post:
|
|
12-09-2017, 12:07 PM
|
#694
|
NOT breaking news
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Calgary
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Party Elephant
The CONCACAF system is dumb but not because it favours minnows (it doesn't). It's dumb because the final stage is easier to advance from than the semi-final stage, with 4/6 teams advancing from the final group as opposed to the 3 groups of 4 with top 2 advancing. A lot of good teams miss out on the final round while occasionally a weird draw results in a weak team making the final round.
Look at 2006 as an example. Mexico were drawn into a cupcake semifinal group with T&T, St Vincent and the Grenadines, and St Kitts and Nevis. Mexico and T&T waltz into the final group pretty much unopposed while Honduras, Canada, Jamaica and El Salvador all get eliminated, then T&T qualify for the playoff and ultimately the World Cup with a losing record in the final round!
Flukey draws somewhat aside, the real problem with so many teams being eliminated before the final round is that these teams miss out on the opportunity for FIFA ranking points by playing significantly fewer qualifiers, meaning they are seeded lower for the next qualifying draw and are more likely to get shafted as a result, while the teams that make the final round play an additional 10 qualifying games. A team eliminated in the semifinal stage could play as few as 6 WCQ games in a 4 year cycle. World Cup qualifiers count for 2.5 times the FIFA points as friendlies do, so this keeps the top teams at the top and the lower teams out of the picture.
That the USA still failed to qualify despite the system being so heavily rigged in their favour is hilarious. And don't even get me started on the Gold Cup.
|
Yeah, there are teams qualifying who play 2 games. TWO games every 4 years. UEFA wants all it's members to play the same number of qualifying games.
Africa might have the best system. Only the group winners in the final round make it. CONCACAF should have an 18 team final round. 3 groups of 6 (10 matches). Group winners go to the World Cup, best wildcard goes to the playoff.
__________________
Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire
|
|
|
12-09-2017, 01:58 PM
|
#695
|
First Line Centre
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Canterbury, NZ
|
They would never split up the final round because they would lose out on two USA-Mexico cash cows.
|
|
|
12-14-2017, 02:43 PM
|
#696
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Familia
I won't argue that Italy is struggling and probably would have flopped in the WC. The fact remains, as Super Matty pointed out, the qualifications are bogus and have serious flaws in them. Italy should be there ahead of many other countries, their record in qualifying proves that (only one loss, minus the playoff vs. Sweden, and we still don't get in). No matter how you spin it, having Italy, Holland, USA, and Chile not in the world cup will hurt ratings and sponsorships.
Love them or hate them, teams like Italy, England, USA, Germany, Brazil, etc. are the teams that people pay and want to see. Fact is, I see 100's of Italy and Brazil jerseys all over the place wherever I go, with a great deal of those people clearly not of Italian or Brazilian decent. I have never come across an Algerian jersey unless the person is of Algerian decent. There is no denying that the traditional football superpowers transcend borders and nationalities and that they fuel the tournament in terms of interest. A casual soccer fan might tune into a Germany match. No one is going to waste their time watching Egypt vs. Senegal unless they have ties to those countries. Just look at hockey at the Olympics. No one watches or buys tickets to a Slovakia vs. Belarus game...everyone wants Canada and Russia.
In my opinion the World Cup is kind of a joke. The world's best teams are not always there. Due to the fact that every continent has to have a certain amount of representation (while better countries from other continents have to miss), proves that the World Cup is bogus. I'll take the Euro Cup any day of the week as the competition and skill is miles ahead of the World Cup.
Maybe I am making excuses for Italy (still bitter they won't be there), but hoping that my point has a bit of merit. Ask yourselves, how stoked are you to watch Senegal vs. Japan? I sure as hell won't be tuning in. No matter how ####ty Italy might be playing, I can guarantee you that they would create interest in some fashion. Whether that be due to an upset loss, a convincing win, or some on/off field shenanigans, people love to hate them. Oh well, at least I can be stress free all June. I guess I'll cheer for Denmark for some unknown reason...
|
You are changing your argument now. At first the argument was there is less "intrigue" without the traditional big nations of Italy, Holland and USA there, which is false because they suck now.
Now you are saying ratings/sponsorships/dollars will suffer, and you'd be absolutely right. TV packages, broadcasts rights, etc will all be scaled back in those countries with hefty populations, especially the USA and Italy.
Personally, I couldn't give less of a heck if FIFA rakes in less money from this WC. Italian, Dutch and USA fans will be sad, but I doubt anyone outside those nations is sad. I certainly won't miss watching 11 Italians diving and crying all over the field for a month.
|
|
|
12-14-2017, 05:23 PM
|
#697
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Calgary, AB
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames
You are changing your argument now. At first the argument was there is less "intrigue" without the traditional big nations of Italy, Holland and USA there, which is false because they suck now.
Now you are saying ratings/sponsorships/dollars will suffer, and you'd be absolutely right. TV packages, broadcasts rights, etc will all be scaled back in those countries with hefty populations, especially the USA and Italy.
Personally, I couldn't give less of a heck if FIFA rakes in less money from this WC. Italian, Dutch and USA fans will be sad, but I doubt anyone outside those nations is sad. I certainly won't miss watching 11 Italians diving and crying all over the field for a month.
|
It’s funny because you kind of proved his point.
The way you speak of the Italian team shows you do care about them, and liking a team isn’t all that causes intrigue, disliking a team also does that. While Italy and the US have large populations that cheer for them, they also have lots of casual fans across other countries (moreso Italy), and lots of fans that hate them (Italy and the US).
It’s that fan engagement that creates the intrigue and interest - it’s why people are even on here having an argument about the Italians & Americans , while nobody outside of the fans in their own country gives two ####s about Tunisia,
Panama, Switzerland, etc being at the World Cup.
And for as much as Italy now “suck” they still had more points than 5 other teams that qualified (including Croatia) , and were still quarterfinalists at the last euro (only losing to Germany on PKs). There is no argument to be made that it’s a better tournament without them there.
Last edited by SuperMatt18; 12-14-2017 at 05:27 PM.
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to SuperMatt18 For This Useful Post:
|
|
12-15-2017, 09:56 AM
|
#698
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Income Tax Central
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMatt18
It’s funny because you kind of proved his point.
The way you speak of the Italian team shows you do care about them, and liking a team isn’t all that causes intrigue, disliking a team also does that. While Italy and the US have large populations that cheer for them, they also have lots of casual fans across other countries (moreso Italy), and lots of fans that hate them (Italy and the US).
It’s that fan engagement that creates the intrigue and interest - it’s why people are even on here having an argument about the Italians & Americans , while nobody outside of the fans in their own country gives two ####s about Tunisia,
Panama, Switzerland, etc being at the World Cup.
And for as much as Italy now “suck” they still had more points than 5 other teams that qualified (including Croatia) , and were still quarterfinalists at the last euro (only losing to Germany on PKs). There is no argument to be made that it’s a better tournament without them there.
|
I see what you're saying and agree with a number of your points.
But you know what, if you're an Italian fan you have to look at the positives. I know not having your team in the World Cup must suck and I cant imagine what that must feel like, but as is good in all things, look to the Germans.
It doesnt take much for me to claim, unreservedly that the Germans are the best team on the planet. They took their reserve squad to the Confederations Cup and walked away with it.
In sports failure is part of an inevitable life-cycle and Italy had been doing their best 'Weekend-at-Bernies' impression by trotting out the same old lifeless corpses hoping to get across the finish line.
Italy and Holland desperately need some new blood. From the ground up.
__________________
The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!
This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a Fire Exit. - Mitch Hedberg
|
|
|
12-15-2017, 11:07 AM
|
#699
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Calgary, AB
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke
I see what you're saying and agree with a number of your points.
But you know what, if you're an Italian fan you have to look at the positives. I know not having your team in the World Cup must suck and I cant imagine what that must feel like, but as is good in all things, look to the Germans.
It doesnt take much for me to claim, unreservedly that the Germans are the best team on the planet. They took their reserve squad to the Confederations Cup and walked away with it.
In sports failure is part of an inevitable life-cycle and Italy had been doing their best 'Weekend-at-Bernies' impression by trotting out the same old lifeless corpses hoping to get across the finish line.
Italy and Holland desperately need some new blood. From the ground up.
|
I agree actually - and IIRC it took a complete failure at a Euro Cup for Germany to re-look at their federation and youth development system.
Hopefully this lights a fire under the Italian Federation to change their outdated views on development and training.
Although the one thing that does make me sad is that I think Conte did more with a worse team at the last Euros - so you never know what he could have done with this group that was undoubtedly more talented.
|
|
|
12-15-2017, 11:17 AM
|
#700
|
First Line Centre
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: CALGARY!
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames
You are changing your argument now. At first the argument was there is less "intrigue" without the traditional big nations of Italy, Holland and USA there, which is false because they suck now.
Now you are saying ratings/sponsorships/dollars will suffer, and you'd be absolutely right. TV packages, broadcasts rights, etc will all be scaled back in those countries with hefty populations, especially the USA and Italy.
Personally, I couldn't give less of a heck if FIFA rakes in less money from this WC. Italian, Dutch and USA fans will be sad, but I doubt anyone outside those nations is sad. I certainly won't miss watching 11 Italians diving and crying all over the field for a month.
|
Ummm I think both of my points stand as SuperMatty so eloquently pointed out. These teams are not only financial drivers (I do agree with you that I don't give a #### if FIFA makes or loses money) but they also create the intrigue. You clearly dislike Italian football which means they have done their job. They have you talking. I don't see you complaining about the style of play or state of soccer in Georgia. As I have stated, people either love or hate Italy, there seems to be no in between. Not having them there is disappointing because the tournament has lost some of its spice.
As for Croatia, keep dreaming if you think you will ever join the upper echelon of football power houses.
__________________
Stanley Cup - 1989
Clarence Campbell Trophy - 1986, 1989, 2004
Presidents Trophy - 1988, 1989
William Jennings Trophy - 2006
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:06 PM.
|
|